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 Holding Kid Back a Grade for Athletic Purposes

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RUSemiPro Posted - 09/12/2018 : 08:59:35
Just curious what the thoughts are out there about the emerging trend of holding kids back a grade level to benefit them in High School Sports.

I'm seeing more and more people have their kid repeat 6th, 7th or 8th grade, not because of academics or maturity, but simply to gain an "edge" in sports.

Some of these kids are straight A's gifted/accelerated students as well.

Some of these kids are not even on the "small or under developed" end either, these are some big boys.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand the landscape and what is driving these parents to make these decisions.

I would think academic scholarships pay more than baseball scholarships, and these extra years of private school (public schools wouldn't allow this) have to cost considerable amounts of money.

Little League had to change the rules so starting next years 13 year old grown men aren't playing on a 9-10 year old field.

Is it about time the High School governing body says, hey you can stay back but you lose a year of eligibility and tack it on the back end?
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
bama21 Posted - 10/31/2018 : 12:43:23
I just recently saw another advantage that I hadn't thought about.

This deals with a player being draft eligible: "College players, from four-year colleges who have either completed their junior or senior years or are at least 21 years old".

This gives a player, if they meet the 21yr. old requirement and they are drafted their sophomore year, another year of draft eligibility.

If drafted their sophomore year, they can say no and go back to college for their junior year and then be eligible for the draft again at the end of their junior year. That gives them bargaining power and they may be able to negotiate more money as a sophomore.

If you are drafted your junior year and you say no and return for your senior year, then you have absolutely no bargaining power left because you either accept what the team is offering or move on to something other than baseball.
wareagle Posted - 10/08/2018 : 15:21:14
Punisher

we finally agree on something!LOL

I agree that using age instead of grade is a good idea at the younger ages. As I said, I never played my son down an age in youth baseball and this option has only become available the last few years. This is where I see coaches manipulating the rules, because its difficult to prove what grade a kid is in at a tournament at he younger ages. While I believe that almost all parents hold their kids back with good intentions, I am not so sure about a few of these coaches.
Elijah Posted - 10/08/2018 : 12:09:30
Not going to check them all, but I think you will find that most high draft picks will leave college as juniors, not as seniors. Mize, Madrigal, Singer...all juniors when drafted. My son will be 18 yrs, 10 months at the time of the draft in 2022. As a comparison, these are the ages of players below at the time of the draft.


Casey Mize, 18 and 1 mos
Nick Madrigal, 18 and 3 mos
Jonathan India, 18 and 5 mos
Brady Singer, 18 and 10 mos
Shane McClanahan, 18 and 1 mos
Cadyn Grenier, 18 and 7 mos
Blaine Knight, 18 and 11 mos
Kris Bryant, 18 and 5 mos
Mookie Betts, 18 and 7 mos

Our local boys:
Clint Frazier, 18 and 9 mos
Matt Olson, 18 and 2 mos
Parker Meadows, 18 and 7 mos
Austin Meadows, 18 and 1 mos
Ethan Hankins, 18 and 0 mos
Kumar Rocker, 18 and 6 mos
Will Banfield, 18 and 6 mos
Seth Beer, 18 and 8 mos

In all fairness,
Mike Trout, 17 and 10 mos
My son, 17 and 10 mos if I did not gap him.

Hopefully, this will give a clearer picture to some of you. There is no going down and beating up on anyone. Refer to my previous post for a more accurate reality.


wareagle Posted - 10/08/2018 : 11:46:45
But if you want to look at "1st rounders" then 17% had August birthdays. More than any other month. And 30% had summer birthdays (June, July, August)
wareagle Posted - 10/08/2018 : 11:12:12
I think your friends school may be an exception and all schools are different.
I looked up commitments from UGA and GA Tech and the ages are all over the place. Some held back, some not.There are noticeably more kids with birthdays prior to December. So whether they are "held back" or not, they are currently signing more kids with May-Dec birthdays. Probably does not mean anything anyway, because it truly depends on the kid.

I am not sure I would use "1st rounders" as a point of comparison for most kids. Those guys are the exception.
Punishers Posted - 10/08/2018 : 00:44:54
quote:
Originally posted by Elijah

A notable guy in youth/amateur baseball once wrote (paraphrasing) that the international players are about 10,000 ground balls ahead of American players.

You want something to be concerned about? Depending on your goals, there is always someone working harder and more efficiently. The greatest equalizer is knowing that no matter the size of your son or the grad year he plays in, someone is outworking you. This is how players get passed.

Natural talent is to be blessed. Having that "baseball" body is luck. Closing down a park multiple times a week is a choice.



True.
In getting a different opinion about the subject at hand:
Had a talk with a friend of mines (for 25 years) who is a asst coach at a major D1 (SEC) school about this hold back thing. He said that they were fully aware of parents holding their kids back when they look at the ages of the prospected recruits. He said we can tell when a kid is held back and we pass on those players cause we do not want incoming freshman who are the same age as our juniors. Those are the players we tell that juco or the draft may be a better source for them playing at the next level.

I was a bit surprised cause I thought they would cater to the older incoming players, but they don't even consider them. I guess they prefer players who are following inline their age with their class, but this was coming from a college coach.

Current Age of 1st round college senior 2018 signed draft pics:

Casey Mize, 21
Nick Madrigal, 21
Jonathan India, 21
Brady Singer, 22, August Birthday
Trevor Larnach, 21
Shane McClanahan, 21
Cadyn Grenier, 21
Blaine Knight, 22 June Birthday
bama21 Posted - 10/06/2018 : 18:13:21
Very well said. This would also be a great reply to hshulers topic on “who works harder”.
Elijah Posted - 10/06/2018 : 15:20:45
A notable guy in youth/amateur baseball once wrote (paraphrasing) that the international players are about 10,000 ground balls ahead of American players.

You want something to be concerned about? Depending on your goals, there is always someone working harder and more efficiently. The greatest equalizer is knowing that no matter the size of your son or the grad year he plays in, someone is outworking you. This is how players get passed.

Natural talent is to be blessed. Having that "baseball" body is luck. Closing down a park multiple times a week is a choice.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 20:32:34
Where we disagree is, I don’t feel it is my place to tell others how to raise their kids. Whatever decisions they make, they have to live with the consequences, good or bad.
RUSemiPro Posted - 10/05/2018 : 17:44:07
And if you read the other posts you will see that I and others have no problems with that.

Also agree that Puberty is a big equalizer so we are on the same page here for the most part.

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

My son started school a year later than he was supposed to, I say supposed to because that timeframe was placed by the government and not my wife and I. All kids are not the same, so having predetermined ages to start school will be detrimental for some kids; especially, down the road. Puberty is the biggest equalizer in sports, the kids that hit it early will be caught and a lot of the time they will be passed, but the kid has to have enough time to reach their full potential.

As far as offending me, I assure you, you do not. As you can probably see, I don’t like the government telling me what to do, so I would certainly take offense to you trying to do so.

Trying to give your kid an advantage comes in many forms, some forms you obviously agree with and others you do not.

bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 16:34:58
My son started school a year later than he was supposed to, I say supposed to because that timeframe was placed by the government and not my wife and I. All kids are not the same, so having predetermined ages to start school will be detrimental for some kids; especially, down the road. Puberty is the biggest equalizer in sports, the kids that hit it early will be caught and a lot of the time they will be passed, but the kid has to have enough time to reach their full potential.

As far as offending me, I assure you, you do not. As you can probably see, I don’t like the government telling me what to do, so I would certainly take offense to you trying to do so.

Trying to give your kid an advantage comes in many forms, some forms you obviously agree with and others you do not.
RUSemiPro Posted - 10/05/2018 : 15:05:48
Not sure I get your argument on how sending a kid to lessons, speed/agility, strength training is the same as holding back and playing down.

One is putting in the hard work and effort, the other is trying to reset or level the playing field. Those are not similar arguments.

I will give you the argument that not every kid has those options available to them. That is true, but there is nothing to say that those kids couldn't put down fortnite or the phone and throw on their own, find a friend and hit on their own, or run and lift weights or do something on their own.

I respect the lesson, speed and strength parents and kids more as they are actually putting in the work, effort and grind. I give even more credit to the Dad and Kid that goes to the field on the weekend and put in extra work. I 100% love the 2 or 3 kids that go out on their own and work hard on their own to get better because THEY want it.

Don't know how you can even draw that parallel between the two.

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

713

You are correct, there are a lot of things out of our control, so we have to maximize what is.

So, if your kid is late hitting puberty, you can hold him back or not, that's a personal family decision. Likewise, genetics plays a role certainly. So, you send him to lessons, speed/agility, strength training and hope by doing so it helps him compete. But if you do send him to these things, are you just trying to beat up on the kids that are not doing them or is it their fault that they are not being proactive?

Eventually, it all evens out and age and puberty are no longer issues.

RUSemiPro Posted - 10/05/2018 : 14:56:10
Doing something for their kid at the expense of other kids. Sounds like you are taking this too personally. It happens everywhere, not just holding back, but daddy ball, buddy ball etc..

Again are they doing whats best for their kid or their ego, so the kid has a better chance to succeed to pad their fragile parental egos?

Where do we draw the line? Hell lets just give them some PED's while we are at it?(total sarcasm here) Again Bama, I don't know or really care about your personal situation, but you sound a little defensive feeling guilty?

What I am saying, some of what people are doing is a stretch and unnecessary or misguided. Only time will tell. But the fact that people feel the way they feel means it's a touchy issue.

Again, me personally, I have ZERO problem with an early age hold back (elementary school). But when I see it in 7 or 8th grade, and not an extremely underdeveloped, poor academics or immature kid. I'm Sorry, I'll offend you and others and call B.S. on it.

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Since we will never know when Pedroia or Altuve hit puberty, using them as an example just because of their smaller stature really doesn't apply. They were going to be on the smaller side whether they hit puberty at 12 or 16.

Also, who are you to judge or call out anyone because they did something they thought was best for THEIR kid.

wareagle Posted - 10/05/2018 : 14:24:34
Just one more angle on this. Look at the college rosters and see how many redshirt players there are. Some are injuries, or other reasons. But I think that A lot of them just needed the extra year. I’ll much rather take that extra year for free than at $30k + because my son was one of the younger ones in his class and not quite ready.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 13:58:54
Since we will never know when Pedroia or Altuve hit puberty, using them as an example just because of their smaller stature really doesn't apply. They were going to be on the smaller side whether they hit puberty at 12 or 16.

Also, who are you to judge or call out anyone because they did something they thought was best for THEIR kid.
RUSemiPro Posted - 10/05/2018 : 12:31:51
Exactly,

And its those kids that at 6 through 12 dominate due to puberty or size, then all of a sudden struggle at 13/14 and are held back because the big field start exposing things such as lack of fundamentals etc.

It's an interesting issue because each situation is different, there are some that its legit being held back and then there are some doing it because they can't handle the fact they just don't dominate anymore or worse the case where someone has convinced the kid and or parent that they will get a scholly or higher draft pick because of it (selling a dream). If someone is good enough they really don't need to be held back.

I guess the real question in my mind is how much of this is the parents driving the decision and how much the kids? And who is the benefit for the Kid or the Parent? I really don't see any difference in this than "Daddy Ball" in the younger years. I personally think it's an attempt for the parents to try to "control" the situation in any manner they can versus letting the kid go out on their own and let the chips fall where they may.

Physically my kid would be the perfect example to hold him back, size, maturity everything. But, I would never do that and he would never want that and doesn't prepare him for real life outside of baseball as an adult. He plays at a high level too and yes unless puberty hits soon, the challenges will be greater and greater. But players like Pedroia, Altuve and others show these kids, you can do it, keep grinding if you really want it. If one day he cant play the game anymore (and it happens to everyone) then that is life, it will hurt and be disappointing but it will come one day. We should be focusing on raising leaders and good young men on and off the field and focus on academics, as for 99.5% of us our kids no matter how good they are now, will not play beyond College, and probably for 90% or more on this board the kids won't play beyond High School.

So, there are some legit reasons to hold a kid back, I think I and everyone get that. However, everyone of us know whether or not one wants to admit it, there are more and more everyday that don't need to be doing this actually doing this simply for gaining stature on the diamond. So, I agree to each their own, but when you are judged or called out don't whine or complain about it either.

quote:
Originally posted by baseball713

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.

Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.



I gave up worrying about puberty as that is out of my control. It's no different from the question of genetics. I have no control if other kids has better genetics (i.e. taller parents, etc) than mine. If someone's kids hit puberty faster and dominates in sports, good for them and I'll just hope that we get that kid on our team to make our team stronger. If my kid hits puberty later (which he is), then I tell him to focus on working hard to just keep up and be able to hang in there. If and when his puberty hits, then the fact that he has to work harder would put him ahead of the game. To put it a different way, I tell him that he should feel bad for those that hit puberty earlier and are dominating right now as they have their own challenge of overcoming the temptation of not working as hard or not working on their technique and just rely on dominating due to their size and strength.

bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 11:35:23
713

You are correct, there are a lot of things out of our control, so we have to maximize what is.

So, if your kid is late hitting puberty, you can hold him back or not, that's a personal family decision. Likewise, genetics plays a role certainly. So, you send him to lessons, speed/agility, strength training and hope by doing so it helps him compete. But if you do send him to these things, are you just trying to beat up on the kids that are not doing them or is it their fault that they are not being proactive?

Eventually, it all evens out and age and puberty are no longer issues.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 10:57:59
From the GHSA By-Laws:

"1.30 - AGE
To be eligible to participate in interscholastic activities, a student must not have reached his 19th birthday prior to
May 1st, preceding his year of participation."
baseball713 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 10:21:14
quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.

Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.



I gave up worrying about puberty as that is out of my control. It's no different from the question of genetics. I have no control if other kids has better genetics (i.e. taller parents, etc) than mine. If someone's kids hit puberty faster and dominates in sports, good for them and I'll just hope that we get that kid on our team to make our team stronger. If my kid hits puberty later (which he is), then I tell him to focus on working hard to just keep up and be able to hang in there. If and when his puberty hits, then the fact that he has to work harder would put him ahead of the game. To put it a different way, I tell him that he should feel bad for those that hit puberty earlier and are dominating right now as they have their own challenge of overcoming the temptation of not working as hard or not working on their technique and just rely on dominating due to their size and strength.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:30:32
Also, while this may help in high school baseball, I assure you the parents that I know didn't even consider that. Even if some parents do hold their kids back for high school ball (which I don't understand), there are a wide range of ages in high school baseball. If your son is a freshman and makes varsity, then he will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds all the time.

High school baseball will do very little to get you committed, but if you don't perform, it can certainly hurt your chances and draft status.
baseball713 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:27:01
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle

Baseball 713

Well thought out response and I don’t disagree with the logic. I still believe that Sept1 is just an arbitrary date and within reason parents should be able to determine how that school date works for thier family. If my sons birthsday was after sept 1, I personally would probably not hold him back a full year. As it stands I actually held him back a month. I don’t really see the big deal. I can say with almost certainty, the majority of the kids that I know that have gotten Baseball scholarships have been the older kids in thier class.

Punisher
Good luck to your son, I hope that you aren’t as much of a douche in person as you come across on this forum.



If it's up to me, I would rather the official rule be something like "if birthday is from June to Aug, then parents have the option based on what they think is best for their kids." I think having this clearly as an option takes away the notion that parents are holding back their kids and it lessens the sense that it's not fair and that parents are going around the rules. Of course, parents of kids with May birthday would now start complaining and they would be the one holding back their kids. It would be a never ending cycle.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:18:59
The kids that I know that were held back play at the highest level possible, most on the top teams in the country and the decision was made strictly on the basis of college recruiting. For whatever reason, they were not getting the interest from colleges that they were looking/hoping for.

Again, all of this, like other topics on this board are perceived differently based on the level of play your kid plays at. When you play at the highest level of travel ball, I don't care if you hold your kid back for 3 years, there will be very little "beating up" on that group of players.
hshuler Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:17:11
As I’ve said numerous times, to each his own.

There’s no guaranteeing anything if a kid is held back but I have seen kids gain an advantage in PG tournaments because of grad year, not age requirements. Two summers ago my son’s 14U team was playing up in the 15U WWBA. A national team they were competing against had a kid who had just turned 17 years-old on a 15U team. I know that’s not the norm but since there aren’t any age restrictions, I think this trend will continue.

It’s been around in football for a while as well because colleges don’t care how old a kid is. Example, Calvin Ridley is a rookie who turns 24 in December. Ezekiel Elliott just turned 23 and this is his third year in the league. I don’t know the circumstances of what Ridley’s parents did (none of my business) but I think it worked for their situation. Now, I also think that Ridley would have played in the league two years ago but maybe not a first rounder. Where it does get tricky from a baseball perspective is draft positioning. Players are compared against players their same age. I’m not talking about a month or two, I’m talking about kids who’ll be will turn 20 at some point during their freshman year. I think that’s why the kid mentioned in an earlier post reclassed up a year so his draft stock wouldn’t fall.

Again, to each his own.
bama21 Posted - 10/05/2018 : 06:54:00
Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.

Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.

RUSemiPro Posted - 10/05/2018 : 01:22:58
I think you are on point, it is a since of fairness for most, and yes all of us can technically hold our kids back to keep pace, but that is a ridiculous statement for one to say, as it's not realistic. Its what the hold back parents say to justify or not feel guilty about what they are doing. Bottom line is yes, they are lowering the bar and possibly cheating the other younger smaller kids who were not held back simply so their kid can have an advantage or perceived advantage, but then get up set if someone points this out to them or someone else.

For giggles today on the way to the fields I asked my son, if he wanted to stay back, he was perplexed that I would even ask him this question. He responded why would anyone want to do that. This is from the mouth of a 12/13 year old. He basically said, he would rather work harder and practice more than to do an extra year of school. He went on to say why would I want to play weaker competition, I want to play the tougher competition so I get better, how come this is easy for a 12 year old to see, but grown adults are blinded to it.

[/quote]

People holding their kids back is confusing to me, but it doesn't bother me. It's fascinating for me to understand why people feel strongly about it. I think why some people are bothered with it is that it seems to go against their sense of fair play. For a kid that is held back to have an extra year to build confidence and maturity, and for this to give the kid a better chance of being a successful high school player, it's going to be always in comparison with some other kids in the class. If most of the kids in his class were not held back, then your kid will gain that extra year of confidence and maturity, and be a better high school player compared to (and maybe at the expense of) the other kids that were not held back. If everyone held their kids back, then your kid will lose this advantage, would he not? So I think there is a sense that holding kids back lowers the bar for these specific kids, while it keeps the bar the same for other kids who are not held back.
[/quote]

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