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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  09:05:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why does Triple Crown have pitching rules that aren't enforced? Both 14U champions in Division 2 (Gold and Bronze winners) had pitchers who violated the pitching rules in the 4th game this weekend at the Forsyth Slugfest. Why have them if the TD is just going to look the other way and allow the teams to continue?

in_the_know

787 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  09:46:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking at the pitching, if the online log is correct, then you're right, the rules were violated. For 14u, each player was allowed 7 innings through the first 4 games, then add one inning per game each game beginning with the 5th game.

Clearly Midway had one player throw reach 8 innings for the tournament in the 4th game on the Gold side as did the Titans in the Bronze.

If you read the TC rules on pitching violations (below), the key is if the infraction is detected. So my question is if this was ever raised to the TD? The rule is loose in that it states that "Consequences MAY include, but are not limited to, . . . ", so in actuality, they don't have to do anything, but can do a lot.

Was the violation raised when it occurred, or before their next game after the violation? If so, was some ruling made that allowed the team to continue but suspend the coach, player, etc., per the rules? Are both or either team suspended from an upcoming TC tournament?

*If pitching rules are violated and the infraction is detected, the situation will be reviewed and consequences will be determined by the tournament director. Consequences may include, but are not limited to, the following: coach and/or player ejections, game forfeiture, removal of team from the tournament, suspension from additional tournaments.
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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  10:53:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same questions. Very grey area. Even if it wasn't raised by the coach in the 4th game, isn't it the TD's responsibility to see the infraction before the next game? And what if the coach had caught it in the 4th game? Would they have forfeited? Just removed the pitcher? Hard to believe they get a MB berth as a result of violating the tourney rules. Is it coach's responsibility for games 4, 5, and 6? Did they just get a slap on the wrist, with no effective punishment?
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in_the_know

787 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  12:27:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralsCoach

Even if it wasn't raised by the coach in the 4th game, isn't it the TD's responsibility to see the infraction before the next game? And what if the coach had caught it in the 4th game? Would they have forfeited? Just removed the pitcher? Hard to believe they get a MB berth as a result of violating the tourney rules. Is it coach's responsibility for games 4, 5, and 6? Did they just get a slap on the wrist, with no effective punishment?



So to your questions
1. isn't it the TD's responsibility to see the infraction before the next game?

I don't think so. It's not the TD's role to seek any rule infraction. It is the job of the coaches to know the rules of the tourney and to lodge a formal protest with the umpire/TD if an infraction is believed to occur. Just like the signing of the card at the end of the game. It's not the TD's role to ensure it's accurate. That's what the coaches are doing. If the TD provides/posts the log accurately as reported to him, I believe his responsibility ends there and it is up to coaches to use that information from that point forward.

2. And what if the coach had caught it in the 4th game? Would they have forfeited? Just removed the pitcher?

The rules state what could occur and it would have been at the discretion of the TD. All of what you suggest might have occurred according to TC rules, including forfeiture, dismissal from tourney, player and coach suspensions. But, according to their rules, it would have been entirely at the discretion of the TD.

3. Is it coach's responsibility for games 4, 5, and 6? Did they just get a slap on the wrist, with no effective punishment?

See answers to 1 & 2 above.

Finally, if you read their rules, NOTHING states a statute on the timeline. It would appear that the losing coach of the championship game could make an appeal today. Personally, I think that would be silly at a 14u level tournament. If the players won the game on the field, move on. Looking at the outcome of game 4 for both teams, and having no insight as to when runs scored, etc., if would appear that the gold game 4 team was won handily and that the infraction likely had little effect on that game. The bronze game as a little closer, so maybe that outcome would have been different. Not to say that either team having to bring in another pitcher to throw the one inning in game 4 wouldn't have had a major effect on their pitching rotation for subsequent games, and possibly impacted the outcome of those games, but again, I place responsibility for noting that a fraction occurred and raising it to the TD on the coaches of game 4 and every subsequent opponent of those teams.

At this point, tip your caps to the boys on Midway and Titans as the better teams this weekend and prepare for next weekend. Part of the preparation should be on the coaches to know the rules and understand in advance what they intend to do if a similar infraction occurs in the future. It's not just the players who can improve and grow from their mistakes.

Just one person's opinion.
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wareagle

252 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  12:58:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have also seen several cases where the pitching logs online are incorrect. In the Spring Frost 12U, there is a pitcher showing 6 innings in a game(which would have put him over) but he only pitched 5 innings and the pitching change was reported to the umps in the game.

Is the online version correct in this instance? It might very well be a clerical error?? Is the online innings report the official report?
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TripleCrownAdministrator

229 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  13:24:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Generals Coach and In the Know:

The violation was caught by Triple Crown in the 14u Bronze Bracket game during play. After the first pitch was thrown by the pitcher, the player and the coach were ejected from that game for the violation.

The violation in the 14u Division 2 Gold game was not brought to our attention until 2 games after the violation had occured. Had this matter been brought to our attention during the game or even shortly after the game concluded, we would have had the chance to rectify the pitching violation. This would have included ejections or even a forfeit of the baseball game.

We had over 286 teams participate in the 2013 event along with 587 games played across the board. We apologize for missing this one issue. We also post the pitching for all of the teams to view. Not one of the teams (including the team that they played) let us know that the violation had occured in the 14u D2 Gold Game.

Thank you again to all that played this weekend and we wish you luck this 2013 spring baseball season.

Tony VonDolteren
Triple Crown Baseball
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in_the_know

787 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  14:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony,

In my opinion, by the TD catching and addressing, you guys went above and beyond. As you mentioned, none of the coaches raised an issue, so shame on them. I don't believe that it is your responsibility to be the pitching police. That should be up to the coaches. I see your role to post the innings pitched as quickly as possible and accurate to the extent of what's signed and reported to you.

As always, another great tournament this past weekend. I appreciate you not bringing snow with you this time . . .
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baseballpapa

1520 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  16:08:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Papa thinks that Tony should appoint him the Pitching Police. That's the job that I have been waiting for.
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Dr. Old School

314 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  17:35:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pitching rules violation is an appealable infraction, not an automatic one. It is the responsibility of the opposing team to appeal when it occurs. (I would disagree with Tony that he should have done anything about it shortly after the game, had it been brought up then, because the game was already concluded.)

It is very important for teams to not only keep up with their own pitching during a game, but also keep up with the opposition, for two reasons:
1) to ensure the opposition does not violate pitching rules
2) to ensure you don't sign off on any innings pitched by either teams' pitchers because once signed off, that becomes the law, right or wrong.

It stinks that we have to go through all these efforts to make people not over-use pitchers.
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HeatCoach

8 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  21:44:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So the responsibility falls on the opposing team? Are coaches really pulling out laptops at every pitching change?
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bballman

1005 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2013 :  22:57:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's been a while, but in my recollection of TC tournaments, TC kept a sheet at every tournament site with game results and an updated pitching log. I remember me and our head coach going to check it out to see who the other teams had left to possibly pitch against us. Maybe that has changed over the last several years, but I know it used to be the case, so no need for laptops.

Oh, most of us have smartphones nowadays which can access online stuff, so no laptop needed there either.
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Newbie BB Mom

62 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2013 :  08:38:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think, if the reason for pitching limits is to protect kids' arms, then the TD should be monitoring the situation and should be able to take action well after the game as over. If the point of the rule is to deter overzealous coaches from pushing kids farther than the sport (or at least the tournament) has decided is prudent, then make it a real deterrent. If a coach knows that everyone (and not just the hapless parent who got stuck with the job of learning iScore) may be watching and at any point the win could be taken away if the rule violation is discovered, then he will be much less tempted to try to "get away with it" and will make certain his own iScore parent is keeping track of pitch counts, too.

If the opposing team has to catch the rule violation essentially as it is happening for it to be enforced, then the tournament organizers are really just paying lip service to the idea that pitching limits matter.

Perhaps the current rule enforcement reflects the ambivalence the sport feels about pitching limits. I don't think a month goes by on this forum that at least one thread doesn't start a debate about whether overuse, lack of conditioning or poor mechanics is the "real" reason kids injure their arms.

So, I guess that's the question, how seriously is the sport going to take pitching limits.

Edited by - Newbie BB Mom on 03/12/2013 09:04:51
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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2013 :  11:21:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Newbie Baseball Mom is spot on.
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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2013 :  11:29:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking at the outcome of game 4 for both teams, and having no insight as to when runs scored, etc., if would appear that the gold game 4 team was won handily and that the infraction likely had little effect on that game.

[/quote]


Actually at the top of the 7th it was 5-3. Had a different pitcher come in the 7th, who knows. Could have been a better pitcher, could have been a pitcher the other team could have pounced on. Hopefully everyone learns a lesson from this.
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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2013 :  11:47:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TripleCrownAdministrator

Generals Coach and In the Know:

The violation was caught by Triple Crown in the 14u Bronze Bracket game during play. After the first pitch was thrown by the pitcher, the player and the coach were ejected from that game for the violation.

The violation in the 14u Division 2 Gold game was not brought to our attention until 2 games after the violation had occured. Had this matter been brought to our attention during the game or even shortly after the game concluded, we would have had the chance to rectify the pitching violation. This would have included ejections or even a forfeit of the baseball game.

We had over 286 teams participate in the 2013 event along with 587 games played across the board. We apologize for missing this one issue. We also post the pitching for all of the teams to view. Not one of the teams (including the team that they played) let us know that the violation had occured in the 14u D2 Gold Game.

Thank you again to all that played this weekend and we wish you luck this 2013 spring baseball season.

Tony VonDolteren
Triple Crown Baseball



Personally I think the infractions should be more spelled out. You run good tourneys, and its hard to believe coaches knowingly violated pitching rules in a 14U tourney, but "at the discretion of the TD" is really open ended. Off subject, but 7 innings for a 14U weekend tourney where a pitch is an inning is too strict. What is the goal here? If it's preserving arms that isn't doing it. A kid can pitch 50 pitches in 5 innings or 50 in 2 innings. If it's to ensure teams with deep pitching staffs and just 2-3 arms advance to the championship, then not catching the infractions when the data is input into the system is a failure on the TD. If Tiger Woods signs his scorecard showing a wrong score, he is DQd. Its not the responsibility of his opponent to catch the error, nor is at the discretion of the golf TD to decide whether he really meant to sign that score or not. Break the rules, face the consequences.
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luvbaseball49

16 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2013 :  21:04:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dont think the Tournament Director should be responsible for any pitching infractions. The coaches sign the cards and TC post the results, thats enough. The problem is with the PARENTS who sit by and watch coaches throw the crap out of their kids arms.
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Cherokee Thunder

88 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2013 :  12:51:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry it took so long to post but I have been in LA all week and just had a chance to read all of the comments. I know these forums can provide for great reading and education but they can also become forums of misinformation where folks stay on topic and then stray off topic.

As manager of the 14U Cherokee Titans we violated last weekendís pitching rules by mistake. Our pitcher threw one pitch in the 7th inning and we the coaches started talking as we realized what had happened. No excuses to be made; as we were penalized and should have been penalized for this huge oversight.

No attempt was made to win at all cost or to use and abuse a pitcher. Just as players make errors, umpires blow calls etc... Coaches can make errors and mistakes and in this instance it was both a learning and embarrassing error.

After the game, I apologized to the umpires, the on site TD, the other teamís coaches / players and then apologized to my team and parents. This is my 4th year of coaching 14U baseball and this was the first time and hopefully last time an instance like this pops up. This mistake should not take away the play that both teams exhibited prior and after this instance.

Mistakes happen and not everyone is out to cheat or over use pitchers to win at all cost. I apologize again for this situation.
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HeatCoach

8 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2013 :  13:32:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Signing the card only confirms the number of innings pitched for that one game. Internet access is needed to see what the pitcher did in all the previous games. An opposing coach may have checked pitching charts on the web, but what if you are playing back to back games, do you know what kids from the other team just pitched in their last game?
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bmoser

1627 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2013 :  15:31:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cherokee Thunder, thanks for your post. Well handled.
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luvbaseball49

16 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2013 :  11:15:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What is the Triple Crown penalty for violating pitching rules if one is discovered?
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in_the_know

787 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2013 :  19:33:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by luvbaseball49

What is the Triple Crown penalty for violating pitching rules if one is discovered?



Read the thread above . . . .
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luvbaseball49

16 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2013 :  17:14:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got it, so no forfeit like in USSSA. I like the ejection better than the forfeit.
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Peanutsr

168 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2013 :  18:40:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow. Two hundred and eighty six teams in the Slugfest and it should be the tournament directors responsibility to monitor innings kids have pitched. Why not make it their responsibility to make sure teams don't bat out of order, or to check every bat in every kids bags to make sure everyone is using a legal bat?
I'm just a baseball dad and I pull up pitching records for every team we play in bracket play before our games. Just pull up the stats before each game and see who is close on innings. Really not necessary to "pull out a laptop on every pitching change", I just use my phone. Takes about two minutes.

Edited by - Peanutsr on 03/17/2013 18:43:55
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zwndad

142 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2013 :  11:35:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agree with Peanutsr. If you're really concerned about your opponents' pitching limits, you can have the pitching chart pulled up on a browser window on your phone. You could probably check in under 2 minutes if you're prepared.

And there's no way it should be the TD's responsibility. Those are easy things for coaches to check before and during the game. And they don't come up that often.
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watchingbaseball

692 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2013 :  11:15:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peanutsr

Wow. Two hundred and eighty six teams in the Slugfest and it should be the tournament directors responsibility to monitor innings kids have pitched. Why not make it their responsibility to make sure teams don't bat out of order, or to check every bat in every kids bags to make sure everyone is using a legal bat?
I'm just a baseball dad and I pull up pitching records for every team we play in bracket play before our games. Just pull up the stats before each game and see who is close on innings. Really not necessary to "pull out a laptop on every pitching change", I just use my phone. Takes about two minutes.


THE SYSTEM SHOULD SEND UP A RED FLAG WHEN A PITCHER IS OUT OF INNINGS,THAT WAY NOBODY HAS TO POLICE PITCHING.
IT HAPPENS IN U-TRIP TOURNAMENTS ALSO, NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE POLICE.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND PAPA WOULD BE A GREAT POLICE CHIEF FOR TC AND U-TRIP.
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GeneralsCoach

48 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2013 :  08:09:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have also seen last 2 tournaments where there are pitching limits but no innings for pitchers are posted. What are you supposed to do then? This is a very grey area that needs to be addressed.
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