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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2018 : 08:50:32
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I read an article in the NY Times today lamenting baseball's declining attendance. The author attributed this to the fact that watching it has become boring as it's all about strikeouts and homeruns. No one is getting hits, so it becomes a game of watching all the position players stand around while everyone watches the umpires call balls and strikes, and when someone finally gets a hit it's a HR. No base stealing, no action, no spectacular plays. Likewise I saw an interview a year or so ago with several top college coaches complaining they are being handed whole teams of kids who can ONLY hit and pitch, and in many cases they are having to TEACH them the basic fundamentals of fielding.
I've been saying this for years..top teams are all about pitching and hitting. Fielding ability, base running, speed are largely overlooked, or even completely ignored. Many of baseball's most memorable moments come from those amazing PLAYS in the FIELD. Coaches will move right past the kid that may go 1 for 3 at the plate, but be responsible for 10 outs in the field in exchange for one who can throw 85 but do nothing else. Even PG has no room on the All Tournament team for anyone but pitchers and hitters. There is no place for the player that made 3 double plays, 2 diving catches, and stole his way around the bases for the only run of the game during his 1 for 3 at the plate.
Just my observation, and maybe we will see a return to recruiting players with a VARIETY of skill sets, instead of looking only at velo and batting average. Hence, the meaning of a "team." Makes it a little more exciting for the spectator too, so I agreed with the article. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 08/16/2018 08:54:35 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2018 : 12:37:28
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It's true that PG has all tourney teams for pitching and hitting. BUT when they name their high follow, follow, ranked list it's usually made up of kids that did something spectacular or really stood out in one of their showcases. However, the name of the game is hitting and pitching. IF YOU HIT, YOU WILL NOT SIT", is a mantra I have heard often.
Yes, defense is important but it doesn't score runs. You can be the best defensive team in the state but a well placed ball, a walk, a balk, an error, will allow kids on base. If you can't answer that with runs, you are sunk. The fact is, a honed team defense is no guarantee of winning. If every kid in the lineup can rake that is a near guaranteed win. You can't win games unless you score, so hitting and keeping them from hitting has become the name of the game. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2018 : 19:54:04
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| Thanks. I understand the need to hit for sure, But contact hitters are as valuable as sluggers and often the rest of their skill set seems to get overlooked? "A hit's a run"..good to know PG acknowledges the skill set too as we age up! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2018 : 08:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Thanks. I understand the need to hit for sure, But contact hitters are as valuable as sluggers and often the rest of their skill set seems to get overlooked? "A hit's a run"..good to know PG acknowledges the skill set too as we age up!
A hit is a hit to most coaches I know, providing it's an actual HIT! Home Runs SHOULD be accidents, not plans. Doubles are great, triples are awesome, but if you have a kid who can legit get on base by hitting it over the 2B bag consistently, or dropping it over the corners heads, that IS very valuable too. There is a power statistic, but a 0.700 batting average would be amazing too.
As for the PG thing...the showcase is $650-$700 WITHOUT the markups for the video and such. Unless your kid truly has something to show and is being overlooked where he is at, I wouldn't spend the money. |
Edited by - CaCO3Girl on 08/17/2018 09:18:16 |
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SuperStar
257 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2018 : 12:13:45
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Crazyforbball, I hear you and completely understand what you are saying. It can be frustrating for the players that are not the biggest, strongest and fastest. There is a lot of skill in the game other than hitting and pitching, but as CaCO3Girl mentioned, the game is heading toward the best hitters and pitchers. I get it though. Everybody wants to see some athlete do spectacular things. Think about it like this: Yeah folks are happy when a running back has a good yards day in a football game. But they are really happy when they can break a 50 yard TD run. Same thing in baseball, folks want to see someone hit a bomb or strike someone out throwing 99 MPH. It's all good.
In the scheme of things, I think overall it's good for any sport to focus on power and speed because that is what makes it very competitive, thrilling to watch, and it forces each player to become the best athlete they can be to make it to the top teams. |
Edited by - SuperStar on 08/17/2018 13:54:24 |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2018 : 14:27:19
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Long gone are the days where players can keep their position and not hit. It is a hitters game for sure as every player in every position are pretty much a homerun threat.
While pitchers and hitters are athletic, are they the most athletic athletes, probably not. Let's face it, you don't have to be a great athlete to throw 95mph or hit a ball 400 feet. They are getting paid to either hit or pitch very well and play so, so defense. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2018 : 05:50:42
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| bama21. Agreed. They may as well allow steroids and other performance enhancements again since everyone is HR and Velo hungry. Maybe I'm too old school with the game and would prefer players to play defense and learn to hit to get on base. OBP is more important than the strike out numbers big sluggers put up. Even some of the big name sluggers go 1 for 24 in month even though the only hit highlighted in that 1 hit. They may as well close their eyes and swing. No one is teaching directional and backspin hitting anymore, and that is sad. Hitting to get on base has and defense been devalued in favor for the chuggers who are all or nothing hitters. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 09:05:03
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| My point exactly Punishers! |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 12:53:40
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I would say of the 5 tools that are currently being used to project hitters, the most sought after by scouts is power. Every hitter wants to hit for power, whether they admit it or not and if they don't hit for power, the scout will project on future power. From a scout's perspective, there are not many true 5 tool players, so which of the 5 do you sacrifice?
I don't think there is any doubt that if you don't hit you will not be in the majors very long. With that said, if you hit .260 with 30 home runs and drive in 95, you will be a perennial player. That is a lot different than hitting .260 with 5 home runs and driving in 50. The batting average can suffer if you are a home run guy that drives in runs.
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 14:25:13
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You are absolutely correct that power seems to fascinate a lot of scouts because guys like Big Al from Jersey who hit three run “dingers” are highly sought after. Most scouts will also tell you power is the last tool to develop as boys have to become full grown men to realize their full power potential.
With that being said, I think the hit tool/barrel to ball skills/ability to consistently square up the baseball is still the thing that takes precedence when scouts evaluate a hitter. High swing and miss rates will turn first round “potential” players into third rounders. Not that being drafted in the third round is a bad thing but you get my point.
I have a friend (scout) who used Ryan Zimmerman as an example. He was top five pick because he could hit. No one cared that he only hit seven HR’s as a college junior because he batted almost .400 and only struck out 14 times that year. The scouting community felt like his power potential would eventually be realized as he continued to get bigger and stronger.
I also think that Mookie Betts has the lowest swing and miss rate in the majors. I loved his quote from the all star game, “I’m not a HR hitter. It just happens to go over the fence.” :-) |
Edited by - hshuler on 08/20/2018 15:28:11 |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 18:33:05
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"Likewise I saw an interview a year or so ago with several top college coaches complaining they are being handed whole teams of kids who can ONLY hit and pitch, and in many cases they are having to TEACH them the basic fundamentals of fielding."
Woah woah. Nobody handed whole teams of these type players to the ooaches. IT is what they recruited or got hyped to them and bought lock stock and barrel from the various $$$ academies.
I don't want to hear them whine when the roster composition was self-inflicted. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 20:10:32
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Yeah, Betts was taken in the 5th round out of high school. He made his MLB debut 3 yrs later, that’s crazy fast.
I agree about the bat to ball skills, but you would think that would be a given if you are in the majors. Obviously, it’s not as this was one of the points made by the original poster. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2018 : 22:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
"Likewise I saw an interview a year or so ago with several top college coaches complaining they are being handed whole teams of kids who can ONLY hit and pitch, and in many cases they are having to TEACH them the basic fundamentals of fielding."
Woah woah. Nobody handed whole teams of these type players to the ooaches. IT is what they recruited or got hyped to them and bought lock stock and barrel from the various $$$ academies.
I don't want to hear them whine when the roster composition was self-inflicted.
Nail on the Head right there! It's who they bought into. Recruiting remorse when they find out they can't really play. |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/20/2018 23:22:58 |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2018 : 06:47:00
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While that is 100% correct, nobody to blame but themselves. In their defense, with all the restrictions put on them by NCAA and the time constraints they are under, how often do they really get to see the kids they are recruiting? Not to mention, having to go all over the country to do it.
Like I've said many times, judging talent is not easy and I don't envy them with the system they have to work in.
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2018 : 07:50:49
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| Next up is to assign wins and losses to the radar gun. We lost to the other team 15-12, but its all good cause we beat the radar gun on the scoreboard. |
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Vandy
36 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2018 : 16:50:11
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| I might suggest that position players are now expected to perform at a high level in game play or they will be removed. Aside from the rare anomaly of a father still coaching at 15 or 16, most of the best defensive players are on the field providing of course they can hit respectably. I'd also agree that there is not as much time in general with the whole "Hooked on Electronics" pandemic that is occurring. Suffice to say 20 years ago there was no Fortnight at home and a lot more infield dirt in/on the living room floor. The other component I'd consider is the whole hitting and pitching science along with the subsequent reward. Smart kids that may not have had the hitting skill set 20 years ago can now work on technique that CAN make them better than the next guy. Same with pitching. There is so much info and knowledgeable coaches out there that they can bring a kid throwing 77-78 up KNOWING they can get him to 85-86 and above. In the era of work as little as possible for the most immediate reward, ie, college offer, it's seems most likely the kids who focus on the 2 immediately gauged skill sets are going to get the first calls. Thankfully the old caveat,.. If you make errors you sit or DH. There's a reason kids from the DR are drafted a year earlier. They're ready. They've played BB all their lives without the distraction of iphone 900 this or ipad that or xbxx 747, etc. 20 years ago a kid would not have had a gun on him until he had an ERA and some notable wins under his belt. Now, throw 90, get signed, no questions asked. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 08:37:53
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| Good point Vandy (electronics)..20 years ago you had the choice to throw with your friends for another hour or watch the news with your parents. It was a no brainer. Now they all rush home to play Fortnite. And let's not forget homework...ridiculous demands placed on kids vs 20 years ago. Ever watch that Jose Altuve documentary? Nothing to do where he grew up but play ball. He spent hours on end in a sand lot hitting bottle caps with a broom stick. Anyone wonder why not much gets past his bat? |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 08/24/2018 09:37:39 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 09:58:01
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DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that. |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/24/2018 10:13:13 |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 12:26:28
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Ok, punishers I need to see some proof of that. The Braves are generally stingy, if they spent that much on one kid; especially, being that young, then someone has flipped their rocker.
See below for other prospect signees, this is more believable:
"The Braves signed Ronald Acuna for a $100,000 bonus in July 2014. They signed Ozzie Albies for $350,000 in July 2013. And they signed Johan Camargo for $42,000 in July 2010.
So for a total of $492,000, the Braves brought all three players into their organization."
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 16:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 17:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
I think he may be talking about international signings like Puig, Moncado, Ed Duque, Ohtani, and other top foreign players who have signed monster contracts before they have even played an inning. He is not talking about the majority of the players coming over. |
Edited by - BamaDad on 08/24/2018 17:37:27 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 17:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
You guys have short term memories. Remember when the Braves got in trouble a few years ago for signing that kid at 14, he was able to keep the money and got sign by the Diamondbacks? Heads of upper management rolled. I'm trying to find the article but it was all in the news and on MLB.
I was down there and saw it with my own eyes. At the DPL and Robinson Cano's dad camps. The Red Sox, Dodgers and others have full service scouting facilities built there. Probably the nicest buildings on the island. They are already invested heavily. You think they get some the best of these guys to come over for crumbs? |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/24/2018 22:03:53 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 17:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
I think he may be talking about international signings like Puig, Moncado, Ed Duque, Ohtani, and other top foreign players who have signed monster contracts before they have even played an inning. He is not talking about the majority of the players coming over.
Correct!! |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2018 : 18:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
I think he may be talking about international signings like Puig, Moncado, Ed Duque, Ohtani, and other top foreign players who have signed monster contracts before they have even played an inning. He is not talking about the majority of the players coming over.
International players can sign after their 16th birthday but that’s completely different than the guys listed above who are already professional players in their native countries and can command large contracts. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2018 : 15:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
DR kids don't get drafted (officially). They sign free agent contracts from age 14 up to 18 yo. Whenever I go down there I see s slew of MLB clubs signing these kids for millions of dollars. More money than the top draft pick gets every year. MLB club make significant investments in those kids and they like any investor, have a high interest in making sure those investments have every opportunity to advance for return. I've even seen US college coaches down there recruiting kids that the MLB clubs do not sign. International athletes have to get full ride scholarships to come to the US to play, not partials.
Just to give people a real world perspective: The Braves gave a 14yo kid from VZ 17 million and their highest draft pick this year only got about 3 million. Guess the VZ kid was a ready to play player. No distractions. Sure, the buscone got a percentage, but it didnt knock that much off the 17 mil. Maybe the same 3 mil they gave the draft pick. Call it a tax. The US draft pick got taxed too, by the state and IRS for a total of 50% which equals out about 1.5 mil.
If you think chances for US players are slim now, just wait until they open the doors for Cuban players. The MLB clubs are already lobbying for that.
While clubs ARE signing a lot of foreign players and these foreign players are NOT drafted, the numbers you cite are just not possible. Here is an article on the foreign player bonus pools available to teams for the 2018-2019 signing period. The total pool for the teams don't even come close to what you said one player got...
https://www.mlb.com/news/2018-19-international-signing-bonus-pools/c-269965184
I think he may be talking about international signings like Puig, Moncado, Ed Duque, Ohtani, and other top foreign players who have signed monster contracts before they have even played an inning. He is not talking about the majority of the players coming over.
International players can sign after their 16th birthday but that’s completely different than the guys listed above who are already professional players in their native countries and can command large contracts.
16 is the official age, but teams unofficially secure a lot of those kids at 14. ie...Kevin Maitan.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/thanks-to-braves-penalties-theres-a-major-free-agent-available-in-kevin-maitan/ |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/05/2018 18:49:00 |
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Will we see changes?
