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 Playing with class or age?
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CaCO3Girl

1923 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2018 :  12:24:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bballman

Here is the only factor I think should be taken into consideration in playing age or grade. College recruiters are generally looking to fill needs for the upcoming year or two. Most mid-D1, D2 and D3 schools are recruiting rising seniors over the summer. That would be 17u. They are going looking for rising seniors to recruit RIGHT NOW. They may go to some 16u tournaments, but they are just making notes for who to keep an eye out for next year. You may not even know they are interested in you because their plan is just to keep tabs. If you are a rising senior playing on a 16u team, you may miss your opportunity because the recruiter thinks you are only a rising junior. Your best chances of being approached and recruited properly is to play with your class. Recruiters look at different age groups in different ways and with a different sense of urgency.

Hope this makes sense.



Bballman, I usually agree with everything you say. But I have to add on to your post and say that if they are sitting on their team doing nothing recruiting wise and expect someone to out of the blue contact them because they saw them in a game...that's not a very foolproof way to go about it.

Camps, emails, videos sent, schedules sent telling them where you will be is a better course of action. Also, MANY 16u teams play 17u events. My son was 15u this year and they played in three 16u big events for the better competition and because the roster had 5 summer bday kids.

Also, if you look at the big time team rosters there are always a hand full of kids "playing down". ECB use to have a rule that you play with your grade, they stopped that 3 years ago. I think it's because it doesn't matter anymore.
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bama21

240 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2018 :  12:40:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Certainly, everyone's individual situation will dictate their perception of the process. And you are right 99.999% won't be going in the draft, but that doesn't mean you don't strive for that goal. You do everything you can and let the chips fall where they may.

Most baseball minded people would say play with your grade, but like I've said many times, you do what is best for you and yours.





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tellit

95 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2018 :  14:40:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Here you go again making generalized all encompassing statements, with nothing to back it up, other than your opinion. How do you know it hasnít hurt him. Are you in all the scout meetings on players in the 2019 class? Somehow I doubt it.




I haven't been in a single scouting meeting. What I know is that 99.999% of our children aren't going in the draft and we should not be basing decisions on where our kids play around the potential of going in the draft. I mean heck, only 7.1% of all baseball players across the United States will play baseball past high school!

Here is the citation for you: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-college-athletics






There you go again trying to bring logic to a discussion with folks that have major delusions of grandeur.
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bballman

1422 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2018 :  14:41:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not professing any hard and fast rules here. There are always exceptions. And, once again, I'm not saying the family and player is exempt from any responsibility. What I'm saying is that there are some things you can do if you want to maximize your chance of getting recruited to the next level. I believe one of them is playing for your grade.

I have seen recruiters sitting at a game watching a 17u event and found out one of the teams playing was a 16u team and immediately discount them thinking they were full of rising juniors. That's not what he was looking for. Could he go to the team and ask if there are any rising seniors playing on the team? Sure. Will he, not likely.

Don't you think a recruiter would think it a little weird that a rising senior is still playing down on a 16u team? Why would a kid do that? Is it because he's overchallenged playing with his own grade? Who knows?

Point is, no one thing is going to make you or break you. There are a lot of little things that can increase your odds or decrease your odds. Why not try to make all the little things work in your favor and not against you.

Can you get recruited from a team that doesn't have coaches with contacts and playing a grade down? Yeah. But, why not increase your odds by doing everything possible to put yourself in a good position?

And by the way. I believe EC changed their rule because PG changed their standard to grade/age rather than just age. Used to be only 17u, 16u etc... Now it is 2019 or 17u, 2020 or 16u etc... I don't think they changed because it doesn't matter if you are playing with your grade or not.
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Hurricane22

63 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2018 :  15:54:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Certainly, everyone's individual situation will dictate their perception of the process. And you are right 99.999% won't be going in the draft, but that doesn't mean you don't strive for that goal. You do everything you can and let the chips fall where they may.

Most baseball minded people would say play with your grade, but like I've said many times, you do what is best for you and yours.


Agreed. And this maybe be off on a bit of a tangent but...

One thing I was always taught by my coaches (not baseball) was do it for the love of the sport. If you do that then generally things will work out in your favor.

I see SO many parents trying SO hard to steer their kids sports they end up ruining it, burning the kids out, or worst case getting them hurt. I know we want the best for our kids but sometimes you gotta take a step back. Failure is part of the process too, and that is okay. Baby steps. The "process" is the fun.

I ended up in a D1 sport, but that was never "my goal", I worked hard and was blessed. I know its NEVER a one size fits all scenario, but just wanted to throw this out there.
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Crazyforbball

348 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2018 :  10:22:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It seems logical to maximize your chances any way you can. By your sophomore year I would think you should be playing with your grade, and if your child is truly D1 material, possibly playing UP as long as he will still get playing time. It is a no-brainer to play on a top team with a "name" if possible, simply to maximize your visibility and chance of being "seen"...go to any big PG tournament and you will always see all the scouts clustered together watching the "names" play. You might have the next big MLB player but if he's over on the other side playing for the no-name team, it's 100% up to YOU parents to get him "seen."

Certain organizations who pump out nationally recognized players year after year simply have connections that others don't, and work for you to keep those players pumping out as that = $$ for their business. Why NOT play for your grade AND one of those organizations? Of course if he's really NOT that level of player, no jersey or name or playing up or down will make a difference. But if your son TRULY does have the "it" factor why not put him in the best position to get it out there? And as others pointed out, HE has to be in the driver's seat..relax and enjoy the ride. You can't do it for him. And if he's college but not MLB material he best remember GRADES. White elephant in the room.

Edited by - Crazyforbball on 08/11/2018 11:56:47
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CaCO3Girl

1923 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  08:03:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying this whole play with your grade thing wasn't how it USE to be, I'm saying it is no longer that way. 16u is supposed to be a 2020 team right, these were the final 4 teams in the 2020WWBA:

16u Team Elite Prime: 2019 = 4, 2020 = 18, 2021 = 5

MWE16u: 2019 = 2, 2020 = 14, 2021 = 1

GBC Marucci 2020: 2019 = 0, 2020 = 24, 2021 =2

Rawlings Arkansas Prospects-Menard = 2019 = 2, 2020 = 15, 2021 =1


Some Local favorites:

GA Bombers 16u: 2019 = 5, 2020 = 18, 2021 = 3, 2022 = 1

643 Cougars 16u: 2019 = 5, 2020 = 16, 2021 =0

Ga Jackets 16u: 2019 = 5, 2020 = 18, 2021 =0

Team GA Baseball Gold/MBA 16u: 2019 = 6, 2020 = 15 , 2021 = 1

16u ECB Astros: 2019 = 3, 2020 = 13, 2021 = 3


National Favorites:

Banditos Scout Team: 2019 = 4, 2020 = 18, 2021 =0

Tri-State Arsenal 16u National: 2019 = 1, 2020 = 20, 2021 = 2


My point is that the super duper teams are allowing it, and even the committed and talented players are doing it.

Edited by - CaCO3Girl on 08/13/2018 09:19:36
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bama21

240 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  09:40:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know the local teams you mention will bring "up" and let players play "down", if the need is there; especially, when it comes to pitching and in the bigger tournaments. Also, some of the same kids will be playing with their grade as well, they will be on 2 different rosters for the same tournament, but with different ages.
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bama21

240 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  10:29:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

[/quote]

There you go again trying to bring logic to a discussion with folks that have major delusions of grandeur.
[/quote]

My son has always been taught: If you are going to dream, then dream big.
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CaCO3Girl

1923 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  10:42:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bama21

I know the local teams you mention will bring "up" and let players play "down", if the need is there; especially, when it comes to pitching and in the bigger tournaments. Also, some of the same kids will be playing with their grade as well, they will be on 2 different rosters for the same tournament, but with different ages.



My understanding was that PG locked rosters and you could only be on one per tourney. My son has had two teams think he was going to be on their roster and PG sent me an email that I had to accept or decline the invitations of the teams.
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bballman

1422 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  11:03:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CaCO3Girl. I really don't want to get into an argument with you, but your numbers bear out what I am saying.

76% of the players on the teams you brought up are playing with their grade
6% are playing up
15% are playing down

I'm not sure the numbers have ever been any different. There have always been kids who play down. My son had kids on his teams that played down. But the number is small and IMO, those kids could be missing out on an opportunity.

Like I said, here is the danger. A recruiter is looking for 2019s this year. They need to fill their rosters for the next season. They are at a 2019 WWBA tournament. They see a 2020 team playing. They may make notes on some kids, but they are too concerned with getting good quality players who are 2019s, so they don't go out of their way for the 2020 kids yet. If your kid is a 2019 kid playing on a 2020 team, he may go onto the "check up on next summer" list rather than the "talk to this kid NOW" list.

Does it mean your kid isn't going to get recruited playing down? Maybe not. But why take the chance?
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Punishers

613 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  11:51:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bama21





There you go again trying to bring logic to a discussion with folks that have major delusions of grandeur.
[/quote]

My son has always been taught: If you are going to dream, then dream big.
[/quote]

LMAO!!!!
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turntwo

923 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2018 :  21:39:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bballman

If your kid is a 2019 kid playing on a 2020 team, he may go onto the "check up on next summer" list rather than the "talk to this kid NOW" list.

Does it mean your kid isn't going to get recruited playing down? Maybe not. But why take the chance?



Lots of logic here. Simply put, why chance it.
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CaCO3Girl

1923 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2018 :  07:19:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The playing down only happens for kids born between 5/1 and 8/31....in other words 33% of the year. Since not all birthday months are equal,having 15% of the super duper teams have kids playing down...it's likely that 50-80% of them that are eligible ARE playing with their age. This is on the super duper teams that are supposed to be all about recruiting.

Which sounds more plausible, that the 16u teams are playing in 17u tourneys to get exposure for their 2019 kids, or that these nationally recognized teams are allowing kids to fall through the cracks and not be recruited?

For my son, with the August birthday, he enjoys playing with the kids he has always played with and against. He will play on teams that go to PG events, he will go to showcases, he will go to college camps. He will play with his age. Just putting a different perspective out here for others in my son's situation. they don't have to move up and play with and against kids they don't know. They can stay with their age, lots of kids do, even on really good teams.
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Crazyforbball

348 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2018 :  09:06:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even more surprising to me..those numbers show kids who are seniors (2019 grads) playing on 16U teams, which are essentially all sophomores? What recruiter is going to expect a 2019 kid to be on 16U team? Agree with above..why risk it?
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bama21

240 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2018 :  09:22:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe you can be on 2 rosters in the same tournament, just not in the same age group. Each age group is like it's own tournament.

Again, your individual situation will dictate your perception. I'm sure there are posters on this board that have MLB scouts actively watching their kids. How do you know? The scouts will introduce themselves to the parent (give you their card), they introduce themselves to your son, your son's coach tells him they're here to watch him, or they email wanting your game schedule. That's our experience so far, so is it still a dream? Absolutely, because no matter how good you are or how high PG ranks you, it can all be taken away in the blink of an eye.

Also and most importantly, I don't say that to brag, just to clarify for a few.

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tbaillie2

120 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2018 :  09:35:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
8th grade..once in 8th grade one should play 14u even if they could 'play down' at 13u...13u field size will not prepare them appropriately. If a kid doesn't want to play HS or higher level travel ball, then obviously do whatever.
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CaCO3Girl

1923 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2018 :  14:32:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm just going to shake my head now and bow out of this, I've said my peace.
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Vandy

28 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2018 :  17:44:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Uhmmm, It's 14u, 15u, 16u for a reason... If you are seriously looking down the road at a college offer, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing with older players when you are qualified to play at your age level. Why, because you are likely not going to separate yourself or "stand out" in the older age group as well as if you played at age level. Why do you think so many athletic parents Red Shirt their kids into Kindergarten? So they will be OLDER than their peer group. Scouts look for the stats, the attitude, project-ability. Scouts don't have a box to check for "kid doesn't look mature enough or throw hard enough due to age" Your player will get far more attention producing well for a better 15u team than he will playing less, not as well, while on a 16U team. Most of the younger players that have this option have a broad choice of very good teams to play on at age level. That cannot be said for playing up in age. The other, worth mentioning, better 15u players will play primarily for the 15u team and play up at select tourneys when benefiting.
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