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 The difference in the top level teams and others
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ramman999

241 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2012 :  10:41:47  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by SavannahBulldog

Miami, MVP has four kids that throw like 13 year olds. Hard work is important, but to think the top teams are working the hardest is crazy. If you think the top teams are winning because they work harder than everyone else you are wrong. MVP wins because they have kids that are well beyond their years talent wise. All of us are working hard, but some of the teams have recruited better than others. All of the top major teams put in hours and hours of time on the field and in the cage....not just the top three.



It's a total package, and talent will put you over the top, but to say that a team like MVP doesn't work hard would be crazy.. There are countless top organizations across the country that I've seen first hand, or coached against (SD Stars, Bullets, Team Miami,Oakley Stingrays,EC Astros, Banditos, MVP, NC Canes) that put in tons of time, play huge schedules,have lots of talented players - to think they work less than other teams because of their talent? I would think some work harder because of their talent! Our buddy C_B can attest to some of that. You don't stay consistently at the top by being complacent..




Edited by - ramman999 on 06/12/2012 10:57:42
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2012 :  14:52:16  Show Profile
(re: complacency) That's a fact rm999 and basically what I was getting at with the original post on this.

The top teams players coaches, kids and parents have to want the total package bad enough to work their butts off and make sacrifices for it. That is not the case though on many teams / organizations in which you think you would. I guess it's a matter of everyone's goals from the coaches on down.

I have had one dad in particular tell me on three occasions "I want my son to be on a winning team that plays the top talent in the state" His son is very capable btw. As each season begins though he backs off of that statement and just goes along for the ride and I've seen his son who is an awesome athlete, the dad and the coaches get more complacent as each season gets deeper.

Then comes the next year and it's a repeat of the same identical scenario. I've been very lucky. My older children had their chance to play in college with one bowing out very early on (not college but sports). I've seen kids reach the top very early in athleticism, baseball skills and then drop off the map because either they lost the interest or their lives took a turn, that lead them away from the time it takes to be at the top of the game for whatever reason.

With my next to the youngest playing now I want him to have the opprotunity to play for the top teams while he has the ability to do so. He enjoys being surrounded by coaches, parents and other kids that have the same goals and drive that he does and that's what it's all about while he still has it.

He may fall by the wayside at some point. He may lose interest at some point but if he doesn't it's my job to ensure he has the best of whatever world it is he's taking a part of.

quote:
Originally posted by ramman999

quote:
Originally posted by SavannahBulldog

Miami, MVP has four kids that throw like 13 year olds. Hard work is important, but to think the top teams are working the hardest is crazy. If you think the top teams are winning because they work harder than everyone else you are wrong. MVP wins because they have kids that are well beyond their years talent wise. All of us are working hard, but some of the teams have recruited better than others. All of the top major teams put in hours and hours of time on the field and in the cage....not just the top three.



It's a total package, and talent will put you over the top, but to say that a team like MVP doesn't work hard would be crazy.. There are countless top organizations across the country that I've seen first hand, or coached against (SD Stars, Bullets, Team Miami,Oakley Stingrays,EC Astros, Banditos, MVP, NC Canes) that put in tons of time, play huge schedules,have lots of talented players - to think they work less than other teams because of their talent? I would think some work harder because of their talent! Our buddy C_B can attest to some of that. You don't stay consistently at the top by being complacent..






Edited by - aboutthekids on 06/12/2012 15:00:59
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SavannahBulldog

50 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2012 :  15:28:14  Show Profile
ramann...you misunderstood. I never said the best teams don't work hard...it is obvious they work hard, but my point was that a lot of the major teams work just as hard as the top elite teams, but the top elite teams have amassed rosters full of kids that have peaked at a very young age. This is a clear advantage at this age, but the gap is slowly closing. Enjoy it while you can!
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Calif_Baseball

292 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2012 :  15:50:06  Show Profile
Ramman999 is totally right in saying you must have "Talent" to begin with as they get older. I agree when kids are 7-9 you can have a group of kids that were taught at a young age to play and everybody thinks because they can catch,throw and hit well 7-9 years old that they are going to be the next Bryce Harper. 10-11 talent and athletes start to take over. Then 12+ well you all know what happens then...THEY BECOME DUMB AND DUMBER!! LOL..

Bottom line is better talented players tend to gravitate to the bigger programs to be around the better talent. WHY? Some want to Win, But not all do. Most I would say want to challeng their kid. Push him to get better, Because if there is nobody pushing them to get better then they get complacent and stop working.

I have been on both sides of the argument. Played on a local AA/AAA travelball team with some OK players and Dad coaches. Then we Played on some (2) of the top teams in the Nation. I will take the top teams any day. It Has more to do with WHO they play every week than anything else. I love to have my kid play the best Players and Teams everytime he steps on the field. I enjoy watching him struggle. Because without failures Theres no growth or lessons to be learned.

What really seperates most players is how they handle adversity during the game. I have seen some of the most talented players just fall apart when situations go bad on them. That is truely the difference between Great players and Good players. Talent will only get you so far.

Remember this when you talk about Draft picks not playing on Major Travelball teams. Travelball over the last few years has exploded. Most of the "Top" players still played Rec or Legion or some other form of baseball. We will know the "TRUE" facts about players playing Major Travelball vs AA etc. in the near future. Travelball back then was nothing compared to what it is today.

Edited by - Calif_Baseball on 06/12/2012 16:06:55
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Calif_Baseball

292 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2012 :  20:30:06  Show Profile
I did a little research on this years MLB Draft to se how many of it's top 15 picks actually played Major Eltie Travelball when they were young. The numbers are mind blowing.

In this years MLB Draft there were 11 players in the first 15 picks of the draft that Played MAJOR ELITE Travelball. Most of them play since they were 10 on Major teams and almost all of them played in the Elite World Series, Some were MVP's of the EWS. Yes there are kids that develope late or did not have the chance to play Major Elite Travelball and they will make it. But the Numbers don't lie. If your son is playing Major Elite baseball his chances are much higher than those that do not.

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ramman999

241 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2012 :  07:58:56  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Calif_Baseball

I did a little research on this years MLB Draft to se how many of it's top 15 picks actually played Major Eltie Travelball when they were young. The numbers are mind blowing.

In this years MLB Draft there were 11 players in the first 15 picks of the draft that Played MAJOR ELITE Travelball. Most of them play since they were 10 on Major teams and almost all of them played in the Elite World Series, Some were MVP's of the EWS. Yes there are kids that develope late or did not have the chance to play Major Elite Travelball and they will make it. But the Numbers don't lie. If your son is playing Major Elite baseball his chances are much higher than those that do not.





C_B - By the same comparison, look at basketball - how many NBA pro players/draft picks played AAU ball vs. YMCA level basketball - probably all of them! Better levels of competition, and better levels of coaching. AAU basketball has been around long enough to provide a pretty consistent case study to show the impact elite level travel baseball will make.

@SB - I get your point too - the top teams are essentially an all star team of Major level players - they are teams built to perform at the highest levels. But someone has to keep it all together and get all that talent channeled into performance, and that to me is where the coaching is critical to sustain that performance and keep out the complacency.. Hard work is hard work, regardless of level - matter of fact, that's why my son has "go hard or go home" stitched onto his glove - it's a constant reminder to him that complacency is not an option - I've instilled that into him through the years I've coached him, and I can only hope his next coaches appreciate it.

Edited by - ramman999 on 06/13/2012 08:15:53
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Bigwhitevan

67 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2012 :  14:53:03  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Calif_Baseball

I did a little research on this years MLB Draft to se how many of it's top 15 picks actually played Major Eltie Travelball when they were young. The numbers are mind blowing.

In this years MLB Draft there were 11 players in the first 15 picks of the draft that Played MAJOR ELITE Travelball. Most of them play since they were 10 on Major teams and almost all of them played in the Elite World Series, Some were MVP's of the EWS. Yes there are kids that develope late or did not have the chance to play Major Elite Travelball and they will make it. But the Numbers don't lie. If your son is playing Major Elite baseball his chances are much higher than those that do not.






WOW. Would not have thought it was that high yet.
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SavannahBulldog

50 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  09:06:55  Show Profile
I looked up the top fifteen draft picks and only 3 played on what would be considered "elite" major travel ball teams at age 11. A few played on major teams, but not "elite" teams. I saw ONE kid (David Dahl) that was the MVP of the elites. Also a lot didn't "show up" as playing on elite teams until they were 14 or 15. You can't measure baseball talent at age 11, and if you could there would be a lot of scouts at these games. Having said that, I looked up all the players from the All-tournament team from the elites in 2005 and most went on to play D1 ball and a few were drafted this year.

Edited by - SavannahBulldog on 06/14/2012 09:34:09
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Bigwhitevan

67 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  10:58:09  Show Profile
I would have expected this to show up in a couple of years. You both found about the same thing. Pretty good trend. Amazing also, with talk of arm injuries increasing because of travel ball, how many kids made it to the top of the draft.
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hshuler

1074 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  13:48:49  Show Profile
Cali,

I am not surprised by those numbers. The only way to tell how good a player you have is through competing against the best competition in national tournaments. If he can't hang or compete with the best then he's probably not an elite player...and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of these kids aren't going to play on the biggest stage but lots of them can get some free schooling and that's a win in my book. All we can do is try to develop players to get the most out of their talent.

HS

quote:
Originally posted by Calif_Baseball

I did a little research on this years MLB Draft to se how many of it's top 15 picks actually played Major Eltie Travelball when they were young. The numbers are mind blowing.

In this years MLB Draft there were 11 players in the first 15 picks of the draft that Played MAJOR ELITE Travelball. Most of them play since they were 10 on Major teams and almost all of them played in the Elite World Series, Some were MVP's of the EWS. Yes there are kids that develope late or did not have the chance to play Major Elite Travelball and they will make it. But the Numbers don't lie. If your son is playing Major Elite baseball his chances are much higher than those that do not.



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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  16:31:10  Show Profile
HS,

I'm with you on the free schooling. It's worked for me three out of three so far. I didn't say all three finished college though. LOL "hope they don't visit this board". LOL
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hshuler

1074 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  19:45:39  Show Profile
Aboutthekids - I will not mention this board to them...lol!

HS
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2012 :  23:25:29  Show Profile
Good because I promised one of them I'd leave that subject alone since he's finally established. Good for me to because he always says "hey, what'd you ever do with your college education? Oh yeah that's right you became a dad and didn't finish right?" LOL, six kids later (that I know of) and at least I can laugh about it all now. "Finally"
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler

Aboutthekids - I will not mention this board to them...lol!

HS


Edited by - aboutthekids on 06/14/2012 23:31:33
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hshuler

1074 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 :  09:38:26  Show Profile
About,

Does finally "established" mean the same thing as finally "outta my pockets?" I hope the your "that I know of" comment doesn't come back to bite you...lol!

HS
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 :  22:18:30  Show Profile
LOL, the "that I know of" came from a time that I was seperated from my long, long ago ex-wife and in Germany / Austria. Established does indeed mean "outta my pockets" and it's about time to.

quote:
Originally posted by hshuler

About,

Does finally "established" mean the same thing as finally "outta my pockets?" I hope the your "that I know of" comment doesn't come back to bite you...lol!

HS

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hshuler

1074 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 :  23:18:45  Show Profile
LMBO....I can't wait for the day when mine are "established" and decide to give back to the community. "Community" in this case means their father's household. :-)
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2012 :  17:26:08  Show Profile
One of mine is very established but he's so tight he squeaks when he walks, so no community giving from him for sure.

quote:
Originally posted by hshuler

LMBO....I can't wait for the day when mine are "established" and decide to give back to the community. "Community" in this case means their father's household. :-)

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dirtdiamond

24 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2012 :  23:12:56  Show Profile
Mine aren't old enough yet to worry about being established but I am aleady working on a plan. About the top teams and the difference. At the state this weekend I saw one team's coaches make a few basecoaching blunders. Either that or the kids just don't listen to their coaches. While on it the same team was on defense and one of their infielders missed a slow roller. It happens. I'm up on the hill on the thirdbase side and all I see is one of the coaches acting in a way that has the kid throwing hand signals all over the place trying to either explain himself or something.

Wasn't long after that the same fielder threw a ball way up the line. Looked like to me he was still down about the other error and again he was trying to explain himself with his hands but not as badly as he was the first time. This all relates to coaching in my opinion. I'd like to know if that was his dad aka coach he was communicating with. I later asked one of the parents and they said the kid was a great little athlete but had been missing a few lately and they felt the dad aka coach was pressuring him a lot.

I haven't see to much of that with the better teams. Sure they get down when they slip up but we all do. They recover much better and faster though.

One other team's coach was shouting out instructions while the kids were in the box and you could tell the kids were getting frazzled by it. One of them called timeout twice stepped out of the box and then looked away from the coach who was shouting and took his practice swings and went back to work.

Same principal. Teach the kids, teach them well and let them play. They are going to make mistakes they are ten and eleven. Correct them of course but not on every pitch and don't act like the world ended if one of the kids makes an error. Reassure the kid and work on it at practice or make a switch. It might help.
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  19:29:25  Show Profile
I saw a few hiccups on the base paths as well but don't know if it's the same teams as you're referring to. I did see one of the kids miss a ball and start making gestures to the coach or coaches in the dugout as if to explain himself. Afterwards he wasn't the same on the field. Not sure if it was the same either but I know this kid and coach quite well. It's mental and if the coach doesn't lay off that certain kid will always have an uphill battle to fight.

Great kid, phenominal athlete and a dad that works hard with him to teach the kid everything he can read on the subject of baseball to his kid.

I also agree that this has to do with coaching or in this case "daddy coaching" all the way around. I rarely see dads on the top elite teams screaming from the dugouts or yelling from the stands when their child makes an error. What I have seen in one instance is the kids get talked to as if they were at a highschool practice which I don't mind as long as it's not made personal. It's not done loudly and usually held to team meetings between innings or after the game. My son came to me and said "he really gets my attention and makes you want to do better".

Now with some that's a whole different topic I know and I respect that as well.

"Recruit to win, Coach to win, Parent to win and Play to win, it's 11 year old TRAVEL BALL."

Teach your kid and the others how to win properly and lose (when they lose) with respect and work hard to get better. Teach them not to walk around feeling sorry for themselves, but to get back up and play to win. It's 11 year old travel ball.


quote:
Originally posted by dirtdiamond

Mine aren't old enough yet to worry about being established but I am aleady working on a plan. About the top teams and the difference. At the state this weekend I saw one team's coaches make a few basecoaching blunders. Either that or the kids just don't listen to their coaches. While on it the same team was on defense and one of their infielders missed a slow roller. It happens. I'm up on the hill on the thirdbase side and all I see is one of the coaches acting in a way that has the kid throwing hand signals all over the place trying to either explain himself or something.

Wasn't long after that the same fielder threw a ball way up the line. Looked like to me he was still down about the other error and again he was trying to explain himself with his hands but not as badly as he was the first time. This all relates to coaching in my opinion. I'd like to know if that was his dad aka coach he was communicating with. I later asked one of the parents and they said the kid was a great little athlete but had been missing a few lately and they felt the dad aka coach was pressuring him a lot.

I haven't see to much of that with the better teams. Sure they get down when they slip up but we all do. They recover much better and faster though.

One other team's coach was shouting out instructions while the kids were in the box and you could tell the kids were getting frazzled by it. One of them called timeout twice stepped out of the box and then looked away from the coach who was shouting and took his practice swings and went back to work.

Same principal. Teach the kids, teach them well and let them play. They are going to make mistakes they are ten and eleven. Correct them of course but not on every pitch and don't act like the world ended if one of the kids makes an error. Reassure the kid and work on it at practice or make a switch. It might help.

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COBB BASEBALL MOM

11 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  00:19:41  Show Profile
Dads that coach are usally a little harder on there son. I have seen some crazy things in the last couple of years. I think if a dad cant coach his kid the same way he coaches the other players he needs to get off the field. We get to see some of the top teams in the area play and the pressure that some dads put on there kids is crazy. They need to remember that they are 11 and it is a game. The parents who are already trying to put there kids in the mlb should be banned let the kids have fun.
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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  10:58:16  Show Profile
Sounds like you may know about this firsthand CBM.

quote:
Originally posted by COBB BASEBALL MOM

Dads that coach are usally a little harder on there son. I have seen some crazy things in the last couple of years. I think if a dad cant coach his kid the same way he coaches the other players he needs to get off the field. We get to see some of the top teams in the area play and the pressure that some dads put on there kids is crazy. They need to remember that they are 11 and it is a game. The parents who are already trying to put there kids in the mlb should be banned let the kids have fun.

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dirtdiamond

24 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  11:01:18  Show Profile
MOM I am going to agree with you on this but add that some of the dad coaches are to easy on their own son while still playing him here and there to benefit only the kid and not the team. I still see daddy ball being coached today and in the major elite divisions.

I am going to agree with another poster on this topic and take it a step further. This has to do with daddy ball, those that say it's only a game and just let the kids have fun because they are only 11 and playing a game.

If there are going to be classifications which there have to be and all of you moms and dads that don't agree let's take a top level team and I'm going out of the state for this one like MVP and put them against the 2A or 3A all stars. The outcome would be horrific and against the lower level team who wouldn't be able to get the bat around on the pitch or run from the hard line drive off the bat. Not a good experience and one that would be hard to overcome mentally afterwards if it were to happen repeatedly.

Keep in mind that these top major level 11U athletes are developed much more than you or I were at their age unless you personally were in the top 25 in the nation at 11. A top level major team has to change their mindset from being an 11 year old kid to a #1 athlete when he puts on that uniform and then even more when he sets foot on that playing field. He's playing elite major level baseball. He's not playing 3A, 2A / Recreational ball any longer and his goal should be to win and if he doesn't win he needs to know he left it all on the field giving it 100% of his effort 100% of the time.

My goal for my kids is always the next level and in this case it's prepping them for highschool ball, and their next major level age group. After highschool ball starts I am prepping them for college and beyond if the chance arises. If not it's college ball and then life I'm prepping them for. Major level ball has no room for daddy ball coaching and always shielding their own child, or for mommy saying awwww boo boo it's okay if you strike out it's only a game. Mommy should get reinforce that yes you're going to make mistakes but yes we're going to work on getting better and better in order to minimize those mistakes.

On your side now MOM. Major level ball has no room for daddy coaches or parents in the stands to be out there bashing their kids. It's okay to remind them if you're the daddy coach or reinforce but don't bash them over the head during the game. That isn't going to make them buckle down but instead it's likely to break them down. Parents in the stands should enjoy watching their kid play ball and understand they're going to make mistakes. It doesn't make you the star by bashing your child verbally from the stands.

Just recognize it, say get em' next time and work on it when you get home. The kid will actually learn to love and respect that approach I believe. I had the chance to watch Coach Jamie Crane from EC working with 11 year old kids on two occasions this year at two different tournaments. In my opinion he recognized he was dealing with 11 year old elite major player and he treated them like he was taking them to the next level. He reminded me of a coach I had when I was 13 and to this day he is the first coach that comes to mind when I think of which ones made the best impressions on me in baseball and life. I don't know Coach Crane him really well and base this on how he dealt with the team on those two occasions.

MOM what level or classification is the team that your child plays on?



quote:
Originally posted by COBB BASEBALL MOM

Dads that coach are usally a little harder on there son. I have seen some crazy things in the last couple of years. I think if a dad cant coach his kid the same way he coaches the other players he needs to get off the field. We get to see some of the top teams in the area play and the pressure that some dads put on there kids is crazy. They need to remember that they are 11 and it is a game. The parents who are already trying to put there kids in the mlb should be banned let the kids have fun.

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aboutthekids

213 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2012 :  21:36:29  Show Profile
Lets go with this and I'll leave this one alone. Someone told me that things I have posted on this board and this topic have stirred the pot in the southside and things will change there next season and I'm going to be eating crow. Hold off on the crow and if so make sure it's not overcooked but done and that you season it well.

I haven't said anything other than the talent lies in the southside and there is no reason that the four or so organizations there can't field very competitive teams out of their areas or being more realistic at least two top level major teams could come out of that area with two others playing mid level major to a very high level of 3A ball assuming they're "classified properly" from the start. Bury the egos and do what has to be done. Nothing wrong with that is there.

There is a lot of talent in that area for sure and the training facilitys / instructors that can run with anyone, anywhere. If me generating this topic has caused people to get fired up and they really do put those teams together that would be great. If it's done I will grill my crow and eat it while smoking you a slab or ribs and we'll sit down together and talk baseball, crow and all.
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