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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| greglomax |
Posted - 01/13/2009 : 15:59:30
I am sure others have noticed this but I thought I would bring up the pitching rule changes for USSSA.
Previously they had three columns:
1) number of innings allowed to pitch in one day
2) number of innings allowed to pitch in one day and still be able to pitch the next day
3) total number of innings allowed to pitch in a two day period.
It has now changed to:
1) number of innings allowed to pitch in one day
2) total number of innings allowed to pitch in a three day period
3) if pitching 3 consecutive days, you must not pitch the next 2 days.
For 7U-12U that is 6 in one day, total of 9
For 13U-14U that is 7 in one day, total of 11
This seems to be an improvement from the old rules. Previously you could have pitched one inning on Friday, one on Sat, and not be eligible for any on Sunday. It also requires a 2 day break after three consecutive.
Interesting. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:55:54
FYI, pitch count recommendations, at least those from ASMI for LL, take into consideration warm up throws etc. |
| Learnpatience |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 10:07:44
What we also might want to consider is that most of the top pitchers are catchers. Total pitches + warm up pitches between innings + pre-game warm ups + throws to the pitcher from behind the plate + throws to the bases = a lot of throws.
Pool Play Scenario: Pitch 4 innings and play first base (example) for game 1. Game 2, play catcher for 4 innings and 3rd base for 2.
Bracket play: Pitch again 3 to 6 innings (using some of the rules above).
These can really add up. A pitch counter might be in order while including the throws from catcher? Just a thought. |
| baseball99 |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 09:05:30
Triple Crown is hosting a tournament large tournament at the end of February. Take some time and watch Sunday play in the 10u age group. I promise you will see several kids throwing 5 or 6 innings in one game on Sunday, maybe even some on Saturday. The pitching records are kept right where the tournament bracket is maintained.
You guys can argue all you want about who's pitching rules are better, but until pitch counts are monitored instead of innings, you will have egocentric coaches and parents abusing these young boys' arms. I've heard every argument about "it's too hard to monitor" or "some kids have better stamina than other". I know most parents would lay down in front of a train to protect their children - how is this too hard to implement? You RARELY see an MLB pitcher go more than 90 pitches these days. How can it be good for a 10 year old boy? |
| coachdan06 |
Posted - 01/21/2009 : 20:40:58
quote:
Originally posted by nat1dbh
I would even have parents who told me to pitch their son more.
Yeah but those are parents who are there for personal glory and dreams and 99% of time dont know anything about the sport and the long term injury problems overuse will cause.
We always liked pitching rules. This is not MLB !  |
| nat1dbh |
Posted - 01/21/2009 : 15:36:56
My son is now 15, so I am pretty much out of the youth leagues. I coached travel ball ages 9U to 14U. Now that the boys have reached high school, I am seeing a lot of overuse injuires in the top players: Pitchers, catchers, shortstops (who were used as pitchers). Of the 5 top players in our age group, 4 are recovering from or in the middle of suffering overuse injuries. Shoulder is most common, but I also see elbows.
I always loved coaching the triple crown tournaments. Everyone had to use a lot of pitching and pool play games were really interesting. It put a premium on defense and hitting. USSSA rules encourage more pitching of the studs. At the USSSA World Series, almost all the best pitchers went 6 x 6 x 6 x 6 ... pitching 6 innings every 2 days for as long as their teamm stayed alive. On the shorter tournaments the studs would pitch 4 then 6 the second day. When we got older, the studs would pitch 5 then 6.
Most teams would do this. I would even have parents who told me to pitch their son more. |
| greglomax |
Posted - 01/18/2009 : 12:43:05
The one reply I would have is, pitching lessons during the season should as much about talking through what worked and what didn't the past weekend. It's the time to fix something that was not working but not for throwing a lot of pitches. Know the purpose behind every activity. That way you can evaluate whether or not the activity is working as planned. |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 21:17:27
bmoser, I totaly agree. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 18:12:37
CAUTION! It will be very enticing to overuse him. Pace yourselves. 60 pitch game limit is good rule of thumb because that means more like 90 when you include warm up and in between innings. 5 days between starts. Limit pitching lessons to 30 pitches, and I'd lay off those during the season unless there's a lull.
Incorporate a change up that's just a slow pitch (low in the strike zone), but is not gripped like a real change up. At 9U, it works just as well, and takes some stress of the arm.
These have been my rules w/ my 9 year old who was throwing 55 last Fall w/ no pain. Put him on a team w/ deep pitching. Fight the urge for him to be the go-to guy. Pool, league, and scrimmages are not his time unless there's something special on the line.
If you cant follow these rules, move up to 10U.
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
As a dad who's 9 year old son just strated pitching, I am finding this string interesting. We have been told by a few umpires this past fall, that he could be pitching at 11u, so I know he can pitch. But I will be keeping a close watch on him this spring and summer to make sure he is doing what is best for him long run.
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| DecaturDad |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 14:39:13
As a dad who's 9 year old son just strated pitching, I am finding this string interesting. We have been told by a few umpires this past fall, that he could be pitching at 11u, so I know he can pitch. But I will be keeping a close watch on him this spring and summer to make sure he is doing what is best for him long run. |
| Hoyas Baseball |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 13:26:40
Tony, that was well said. You're on fire! Triple Crown definitely has the best rules from the aspect of creating a competitive playing field. One thing the rules do that many coaches fear is exposing them defensively. When you have a "horse" on the mound there are more strike outs and induced outs. ROUTINE. But with a middle rotation and lower, hit balls are more frequent and can be more difficult to field. Plus there may be more base runners which creates more situations.
Unfortunately many coaches think a pitcher that doesn't get strike outs, isn't a pitcher. That's when the development stops which is too bad for a child who does what the position requires: throw strikes.
The pitch count is the way to go, more coaches should adopt this which will make any organizations rules kinda irrelevant.
I think Triple Crown rules can require 7-8 pitchers with a large field which is great. Many don't like this because most coaches strategize for strong pitchers to pitch complete or near complete games and with TC they only have them for one game. Other organization rules allow you to strategize to get multiple wins with one pitcher. Teams that win tournaments that way aren't necessarily the best team, but that's how tournament play goes. |
| Learnpatience |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 13:12:44
Strike 2, I like that approach best. |
| Strike 2 |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 00:20:04
Buy a pitch counter. Read up. Take care of your son. That simple. |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/16/2009 : 17:41:03
Learnpatience, if you look at your scenario, 70 innings pitched over 5 months equals 3.5 innings per week. I don't see anything wrong with that. My son pitched 73 innings last spring as a 14 yr. old and he threw more innings than anyone on the team. I'll take that anyday. 3.65 innings per week on average. Playing almost exclusively tournaments, he would pitch on Sunday, then not again till the next Saturday or Sunday. Plenty of rest.
I think pitch counts are a good idea, but not as an overall rule for everyone. As I stated earlier, some kids can go longer than others. Therefore, if you made the pitch count rule to be, say 75 pitches, as LL has done, you may put one kid in there who tires at 40 pitches, but the coach leaves him in there because the limit is 75. On the other hand, you have another kid who can go 85 and still be fresh and throwing harder than he did when he started. You are hurting one player and holding the other one back because of a one scenario fits all mentality.
The only way to truly deal with this is for the coaches to be educated and make the reasonable decision. It is rediculous for a 12 yr. old to throw 169 pitches in a game. It would be just as rediculous to have a kid who gets tired at 40 pitches to keep going to reach 75. All we can do is talk to our fellow coaches and educate each other on what the right thing to do is. I don't think that means confronting an opposing coach in the middle of a game. It could mean having an assistant coach say something to a head coach in the middle of a game when the situation starts to get out of hand.
Believe me, we have lost a number of games because we took our ace out when he got tired. Coaches just have to be responsible. |
| Jay Andrews |
Posted - 01/16/2009 : 12:03:13
Following a pitch count is by far the best way to go as it pertains to what is in the best interest of the player. Unfortunately they are also the hardest to police from the perspective of tournament rules. It will always fall back on the coaching staff to do the right thing with their pitchers. Further, even in doing the right thing most coaches only count the actual pitches thrown in the game and disregard the 20-30 pitches thrown in the bullpen prior to coming into the game, as well as the 5-7 pitches thrown at the beginning of each inning. The reality is that the pitcher who throws 4 innings averaging 15 pitches per inning has really thrown between 100-120 pitches, not 60.
Coaches should be developing and utilizing as many pitchers as they can each tournament, especially at the ages of 9-13 and for all of those spring tournaments. Certainly you probably want to utilize the 5-6 more successful pitchers more when it gets down to the state and world series tournaments. But even with those tournaments there will be opportunities to utilize the 3-5 other pitchers. The bottom line is that you should never compromise the health and well being of a player for a win. |
| Learnpatience |
Posted - 01/16/2009 : 10:15:58
Let's see: 70 games / season (for typical 10 year old travel team). Average of 6 innings / game. 6 pitchers average / team. This equates to about 70 innings pitched / 5 months per pitcher. This is about 8 complete games in that same time period IF YOU ARE A MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER. 11.5 complete games as a kid.
There were probably less complete 9 inning games pitched in the major leagues than 8.
The pitching guidelines are there to protect arms. Coaches either need to get more pitching and use them, develop the 7,8,9,10,11 players, or play fewer games. Win at all costs is sickening  |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 20:53:22
We all know that there are more kids on these rosters that have the ability to pitch but don't get the opportunity to get the needed mound time and experience for fear of a loss,some coaches are gonna throw those 2 or 3 kids everytime they need them no matter what.So you cant trust some of the coaches, and allot of the parents are ignorant of the guidelines in pitching and pitch count recommendations. If you cant monitor the pitch count as an organization then post the rules and reasons for them including a recommended pitch count for each age group at every event so parents will be Know and be able to monitor there own kid. Make it very visible and Impossible for anyone attending not to know what should be taking place! Then you have done all you can as an organization to make things right.
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| Mike Corbin |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 19:32:51
Greg,
I would agree that every player has that different capability. Some can definatly go longer or don't run out of gas as quickly. But, I think that the pitching rules are in place to protect the kids from their coaches! I agree that it is our resposiblity to do what is in the best interest of the PLAYERS. However, I can name many instances where I have seen kids keep getting roled out there to give the coach "one more inning", because no one else could do it or everyone else was out of gas. Pitching rules are there to protect the kids. |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 16:18:04
I agree with you on that point greg. Some kids can definetely go more than others. In fact, I have had online discussions with Dr. Glen Flesig from ASMI and he agrees that fatigue and rest between outings is much more important than pitch counts in themselves. If pitchers want to strengthen their arms, they should pitch to the point of fatigue, then stop and allow enough rest to recooperate. For some, that threshold is higher than for others. It is the coaches and the parents responsibility to recognize that and make the appropriate move. We have had some kids (at 14u) that could go 80-85+ pitches and wonder why we took them out and others that would go 40-50 and they were done. If you go to your limit, you should take 3-4 days off without throwing from the mound to allow your arm to heal.
Point is even ASMI (who developed the pitch count rules for LL) agree that fatigue and rest are more important than pitch counts as long as the people involved are responsible. |
| greglomax |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 14:05:50
baseball99,
I am not a big proponent for hard rules on pitch. I think they vary so much from kid to kid. I am fine with having a ceiling like "No more than 80 pitches in a game." but pitch counts vary greatly from pitcher to pitcher. You have some pitchers, like my son, that takes 25 pitches for him to get warmed up going good. While you have others that start to lose their mechanics after 40 pitches. It is the responsibility of the coaches to know the threshold of the pitcher, and cut them off then. Also they need to be watching their mechanics and at the first sign of getting tired and losing they mechanics, get them out of there. Parents also need to be paying attention to the frequency of their kid's pitching. Don't go blindly into the situation and say "Well if the coach thinks it's ok, then it must be."
As for pitch counts, that requires you have an official for the tournament keeping up with it during every game. Also you have to decide if warm-up pitches count, and throw-overs, etc.
I don't know why we feel that it is the sanctioning bodies responsibility to "Make the coaches do the right thing." because shouldn't it be in the kid's best interest for them to "Do the right thing"? What is right, is what is right for each kid. |
| bballman |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 08:05:47
Quite honestly, I can deal with 7 innings. As I stated above, I think the 11 innings USSSA makes available are too many. I don't think we ever had a kid use all his innings in a USSSA tournament. My only issue is the one pitch one inning along with the 7 inning limit. Theoretically, a kid can throw 2 1/3 innings and be done.
I have always loved Triple Crown events and we have played in many of them. I still say for the older kids in particular, this is a little restrictive. I understand your reasoning Tony, but don't completely agree. Here is a for instance (may be the exception, but it happened). We had a 13 yr old throw one third of an inning on Friday night to close a game. Saturday, he went 6 innings, but only 50 pitches. He was done for the tournament. He probably only threw 60 pitches.
Like I said, I can deal with the 7 innings, it is the 1/3 innings in addition to that that make it hard to swallow. |
| Hook Em Horns |
Posted - 01/15/2009 : 07:17:58
Nicely played...Mr VonDolteren. |
| greglomax |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 23:28:07
See Tony, it's not just me giving you crap about those trophy bats. 
I still prefer the Triple Crown Rules. I like the strategy of having to use 5 or 6 pitchers to win a tournament. |
| baseball99 |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 21:42:59
Tony,
Here is the problem I see with your pitching rules. Repeatedly, I have seen teams in your tournaments save their best pitcher(s) for the semi-finals and finals. They then proceed to pitch those kids for an entire game of 6 innings. Even if the kid averages 15 pitches per inning, that's 90 pitches in a game !!! The ones I have seen doing this are 9 & 10 year olds. If one is truly concerned about the health of his players, the USSSA rules (4/6/8) seems more likely to prevent a kid from throwing 100 pitches in a day. The fact that some of these coaches allow a 9 or 10 year old to throw more than 60 pitches in a day is disturbing. I would rather have my son throw 60 pitches on a Saturday and then 60 more on Sunday with ice and rest in between than 100 pitches in one day. I hope that Triple Crown and all of the other organizers will soon give serious consideration to limiting pitches rather than innings. It's obvious that some of these coaches are going to do whatever it takes to win, even if the price to be paid is a 9 year old's young arm. |
| Marinersfan |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 18:50:50
In my opinion, for the younger age groups (12U and under) Triple Crown pitching rules are far superior to USSSA. 6 or 7 inning limit forces coaches to develop pitchers and not rely on their top three. For that reason, and as a general rule only, I often put more stock in teams that do well in Triple Crown Tournaments over others. I just can't respect the teams that throw their number one pitcher on Friday night for 6 innings, 90 pitches, then not pitch him Saturday to reset the USSSA clock and then throw him again for 6 more innings on Sunday at 10, 11 or 12 years old.
(Tony, thanks for the Triple Crown analysis. Now just do something about the Championship towels, mini bats and wood plaques and we'll be happy.) |
| TripleCrownAdministrator |
Posted - 01/14/2009 : 15:09:21
Coaches,
There is always a true meaningful purpose that seperates our premium product from the other organizations out there. Let me explain all of the reasoning behind the pitching rules that are in place with TRIPLE CROWN BASEBALL and will continue to be there to protect the boys that are out there playing the game.
1. Lets say you have 10 or 11 players on your roster (ages 8U to 12U) for any tournament weekend. Let us also say you are in a pretty reasonable size bracket that weekend and must win 6 games to take the championship. This means you have at least 60 to 66 innings to work with(for those 10 or 11 players) plus an additional 10 or 11 innings for each game after the 4th game, since each kid gains another inning pitched. Looks like you would have plenty of pitching there to work with. MANY OF YOU ARE NOW SAYING THAT NOT EVERY KID ON MY TEAM IS A PITCHER! Why would you not develop those #4, #5, #6, and #7 pitchers on your roster in a tournament setting??? Why only bring 2 HORSES to the rodeo??? Are we not all about saving kids arms here??? How would any coach in their right mind pitch a kid more than 6 or 7 innings in a weekend??? Is it worth the kid not being able to lift his arm for a plastic trophy?? Why did Little League even go a step further and go to a pitch count??? TOO MANY ARM INJURIES BEFORE THE KID EVEN REACHES PUBERTY AND NOT ALLOWING THE GROWTH PLATES TO FULLY DEVELOP!
2. The other main issue is that it forces all of the coaches to ACTUALLY COACH and STRATEGIZE how they are going to set up their rotation for the weekend. With Triple Crown, we try to make Pool Play mean something and make it exciting from the first pitch! How can we get by in pool play, and then set up our pitching for bracket play to give us the best opportunity to win. All of this taking place knowing that the kids and their arms are being looked after.
3. Finally, it allows you to see (especially early in the year) who can pitch and who needs to be developed. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TYPICAL AAA TEAM AND A MAJOR TEAM IS NOT THE TALENT! IT IS WHO IS DEEPER ON THE MOUND! EVERY TEAM HAS 1 OR 2 GOOD PITCHERS, BUT THE MAJOR TEAMS DEVELOP AND HAVE GOOD PITCHING 5 OR 6 DEEP. This is not T-BALL where everyone already has a set position and no one is going to move around. This gives the coach flexibility to that kid or kids who just need some reps on the mound in order to gain confidence and be productive. IT MAKES THE COACH OPEN HIS EYES TO WHAT KIND OF ROTATION HE CAN HAVE AND HOW DEEP IT CAN GO! VERY IMPORTANT WHEN YOU GET INTO A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP OR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!
Well, I usually do not respond to the message board, but felt it was very important to explain to all of you why TRIPLE CROWN has the pitching rules in place! Many coaches have already seen the light with this issue and understand how it improves their team as a whole. I hope with the reading of this post, it will open the eyes of many who never think about this issue.
Thank you goes out to all of the teams who PLAY TRIPLE CROWN BASEBALL! Without your support, we would not be serving youth sports. Take care and have a great 2009 baseball season.
Tony VonDolteren
Georgia Triple Crown Baseball |
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