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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ballcoach34 |
Posted - 03/19/2018 : 16:40:59
We are playing our first event this coming weekend where the USA bats are required. I have gotten some feedback from a couple teams that used the bats at earlier events this year. I am curious to see what others have found....is there a big difference, are you seeing teams use more small ball, etc. Has anyone found a particular USA bat to be hotter than others or is like BBCOR where they are all about the same? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Punishers |
Posted - 04/26/2018 : 11:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by SamQuick
quote:
[i] Ash or Maple have more rebound than USA bats. Nothing built in. If there was a real wood shortage as some claim, wood bats would cost just as much or more than the alloy or composite bats because of the economics of supply and demand.
Ash have been hit by an invasive insect - Emerald Ash Borer. Even so, you can still get KD blanks from Amazon for 25-30 dollars, ash or maple.
No Ash. Go Birch. It gets harder every impact and still has the flex. Good mix between Ash and Maple. |
| SamQuick |
Posted - 04/25/2018 : 22:15:49
quote:
[i] Ash or Maple have more rebound than USA bats. Nothing built in. If there was a real wood shortage as some claim, wood bats would cost just as much or more than the alloy or composite bats because of the economics of supply and demand.
Ash have been hit by an invasive insect - Emerald Ash Borer. Even so, you can still get KD blanks from Amazon for 25-30 dollars, ash or maple. |
| SamQuick |
Posted - 04/03/2018 : 22:38:42
quote:
[i] Ash or Maple have more rebound than USA bats. Nothing built in. If there was a real wood shortage as some claim, wood bats would cost just as much or more than the alloy or composite bats because of the economics of supply and demand.
Ash have been hit by an invasive insect - Emerald Ash Borer. Even so, you can still get KD blanks from Amazon for 25-30 dollars, ash or maple. |
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 03/30/2018 : 13:06:23
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Chet
30 years ago there weren’t the alternatives for kids? Have you seen an early rec kid pitch game? I’m a big fan of wood for travel or big fields, I just don’t see the problem that is being “fixed”. Truly top players stand out regardless of the bat if you know what you are looking for.
I’ll also reiterate that IMO the USA bats are worse that wood, bigger barrel for contact but less of a reward when you do barrel a ball as opposed to a wood bat.
Agreed that USA bats are worse than wood. They are too stiff and have rebound dampening built in them. Ash or Maple have more rebound than USA bats. Nothing built in. If there was a real wood shortage as some claim, wood bats would cost just as much or more than the alloy or composite bats because of the economics of supply and demand.
My son is 12u and we are doing a PG tourney in a few weeks, instead of wasting money on a garbage USA Bat, I am strongly considering have him use wood in the games. I actually think Wood has better pop WHEN he squares it up properly. If your player can learn to hit with wood and handle the weight (drop 3 or 5) vs drop 10 for USA bat I think wood may be the better choice. Other than the weights the USA bats have a larger sweet spot to help on mis-hit balls. Proof will be on the field in a few weeks...
Our coach is also doing a wood bat tourney, and I cannot wait. I think this is the great equalizer when everyone is on a level playing field with just wood it will be interesting to see the results. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 03/28/2018 : 15:41:21
quote:
Originally posted by Chet
30 years ago there weren’t the alternatives for kids? Have you seen an early rec kid pitch game? I’m a big fan of wood for travel or big fields, I just don’t see the problem that is being “fixed”. Truly top players stand out regardless of the bat if you know what you are looking for.
I’ll also reiterate that IMO the USA bats are worse that wood, bigger barrel for contact but less of a reward when you do barrel a ball as opposed to a wood bat.
Agreed that USA bats are worse than wood. They are too stiff and have rebound dampening built in them. Ash or Maple have more rebound than USA bats. Nothing built in. If there was a real wood shortage as some claim, wood bats would cost just as much or more than the alloy or composite bats because of the economics of supply and demand. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 03/28/2018 : 12:49:44
What would be the "Good kids"? Would that be the D1 players? The 2.1% of all high school players that will go on to play D1 baseball. If that were the case, you may have trouble filling a tournament. My son plays on one of the top teams in the country and I can say without a doubt, they would rather face a kid throwing 90+ than one throwing 70. I've seen the "good kids" heading back to the dugout in disgust after facing that "any kid" throwing 70-80.
I believe it is common sense, until these kids are developed (at least STARTING puberty), they need all the help they can get. We know college players are being helped by a juiced ball, most would say the same for MLB, but for the youngest and weakest players let's make them play the game the way it is meant to be played. That, to me, makes absolutely no sense.
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| Chet |
Posted - 03/28/2018 : 12:18:33
30 years ago there weren’t the alternatives for kids? Have you seen an early rec kid pitch game? I’m a big fan of wood for travel or big fields, I just don’t see the problem that is being “fixed”. Truly top players stand out regardless of the bat if you know what you are looking for.
I’ll also reiterate that IMO the USA bats are worse that wood, bigger barrel for contact but less of a reward when you do barrel a ball as opposed to a wood bat. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 03/28/2018 : 10:15:38
Hard to believe that the type of bats would keep kids from playing. It may drive some kids back to Rec. The game has been around long before hot bats came into play and is not going anywhere. Some of these parents need to go to a High School, College or Pro game and see how the game is really played. Yes. It's boring and slow, but that is the way it really is. If kids were conditioned to play the right way with the right equipment this would never become an issue. The only thing parents are doing are fueling the machine that the bat companies created to give false results with $350 bats. Then reality hits them hard when they have to swing a $70 wood bat. This is so simple to solve and more economical to everyone. Just play with wood bats and learn how to hit. Will make your kid a better hitter in the long run, unless that isn't the goal. Defense is suppose to make routine plays anyway.
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| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 03/28/2018 : 08:18:56
So, these bats that are evening the playing field will stop kids from playing? Did the lack of the hot bats stop kids 30 years ago from playing?
Every year these "hot" bats give kids and parents the illusion that their kid is GOOD! The parent then spends thousands to nurture this phenom of a ball player. These new bats seem like a very good thing if it can keep Little Johnny's parents from spending thousands of dollars on Johnny when Johnny actually isn't a good player. Maybe far less kids would quit at 14 if we didn't feed their delusions of grandeur with these hot bats. Maybe the rec parks could keep kids past 9u. Maybe travel ball would truly be for the good kids, and not just ANY kid. |
| MAHER |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 23:11:21
So what are the best Drop 5 and Drop 8 USA-approved bats? Did that question get answered? I'm curious myself (8th graders swinging -5 and 6th graders in drop 8 or drop 9. |
| Chet |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 16:38:03
By speed of the game I mean defenders fielding and adjusting to harder hit balls. Very few defenders were seemingly tested @ PG in the 100 or so plays I viewed. They are so accustomed to fielding rockets that the USA bat contact was a two year step back in time.
Agreeing largely with all those here, changing the bats and the bats alone, especially with what I perceive to be super dull bats (less than wood in many cases) is an arbitrary swap. Should phase it in or do something to make an adjustment. This year in a few tourneys may be one thing, but what about next year? Will all go USA? Will USA manufacturing improved and edge closer to the standard limits as most USSSA mfgers did (up to last years ZEN debacle)? 11&12u kids are basically a science experiment being pushed, again IMO, by little league and ESPN/ABC. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 16:20:23
Is the speed of the game that important? So what if they only played 4 innings with 4-3 scores? Too many want instant results for now instead of hitting hundreds of balls a week to really learning how to hit. So make the field bigger for 11 and up. Lets put them on a regulation 60/90 field. People will still complain that the field is too big cause kids can't hit out of the IF or make it from home to 1B, or make the throw from 3B to 1B because it's too far. Ball gets hit thru the gap and rolls 350 ft. that might be a double instead of an in the park HR. 2B and SS is not as quick as they thought they were when they cant get to balls hit 15ft to their left or right. Big hits become pop flys.
I'm down with that idea. Keep the hot bats and play on a 60/90 and watch the big kids get gassed trying to make it to 1B. The field size alone will phase out half of those playing travel ball today. Rec will flourish again. |
| Chet |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 15:00:33
Lots of good points here. One thing to clarify is I was in part speaking about the effects on rec kids. The initial kid pitch rec game is slow. USA bats will make it unnecessarily slower IMO. For the elite travelkids I’m not convinced that wood doesn’t have more pop and if there were a problem in need of solving that would have been the solution.
As to the “bats too hot” argument punishers makes, it’s a good one to some degree but the flip side is the speed of the game defensively is much faster than what I saw On tape from PG this weekend. We all can talk about the 300’ homers but realize that defenders are playing a game much faster with the usssa bats. To me, one of the cool things about PG is the big field element. If you want to solve the big bat problem go to bigger field dims at 11 & 12.
I reiterate that the USABat from what I have seen is an overreaction to a problem that doesn’t exist or really matter. We are being forced to deal with the TV economics of Little League and the LLWS, not fixing a problem that is real for the travel kids.
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| Punishers |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 12:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
All these bats are going to do is frustrate the little guys and promote everyone wanting the bigger/stronger players, even more than they do now. Also, with starting this at such a young age, that means the little guys have to literally wait years before they hit puberty and catch up, which means that many will probably quit. In my opinion, they are starting this bat thing way to early.
Of course, there will be complaints and why shouldn't there be.
We forget when college made the transition to BBCOR, everybody complained and I mean everybody. So, what did college baseball do, they made the ball harder to compensate. What about the MLB and using wood, does anyone really believe that the MLB ball is not juiced? You have check swings being hit for homeruns. So, I guess my point is, what's the difference in a juiced bat versus a juiced ball? NONE
You make a good point about the small guys having a hard time, but are the kids playing for results for now or the future? A good coach can small ball the big kids to death and still have success. For the coaches that hunt for big kids at a specific age group. We all know the size and utilization of their brains. Size is just size, not to often you get results with it. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 12:36:01
All these bats are going to do is frustrate the little guys and promote everyone wanting the bigger/stronger players, even more than they do now. Also, with starting this at such a young age, that means the little guys have to literally wait years before they hit puberty and catch up, which means that many will probably quit. In my opinion, they are starting this bat thing way to early.
Of course, there will be complaints and why shouldn't there be.
We forget when college made the transition to BBCOR, everybody complained and I mean everybody. So, what did college baseball do, they made the ball harder to compensate. What about the MLB and using wood, does anyone really believe that the MLB ball is not juiced? You have check swings being hit for homeruns. So, I guess my point is, what's the difference in a juiced bat versus a juiced ball? NONE
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| Punishers |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 09:56:51
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
I was there too. And yes, for the purists, it was more like "real baseball". Hits were well-squared-up balls, and not 'miss hits' going 180-225'. Low scoring, defensive battles (teams still had to make the routine plays). Our team played in this tourney, and I feel the same as Chet, Ballcoach, and bballer-- it was SLOW.
The kids, who stick with baseball, have their whole lives ahead of them in wood/BBCOR, why rush it? Sure fundamentals may be sacrificed, in name of the trampoline bats, but those same bats also bring the excitement and success (however 'fake' or over-exaggerated it may be)-- those bats keep the games interesting and the success keeps the kids interested in the sport. SO MANY give up the game when the bats get heavier, and/or the field gets bigger, why rush it? As Chet said, I could see even further dwindle in the sport, especially in the rec ball arena, when less and less 'success' happens and the (already slow games) get even more painfully slow.
Just my 0.02 worth.
That "Success" should come from hard work and not a "Hot" bat. These false results have been going on long enough no matter how people try to avoid reality. My motto still stands: "if you cant do it with wood, then you cant do it at all". We all know this will change when kids turn 14yo and have to play on a real size field and every play is rare. Each year there is a progression of players. The Studs with early growth spurts last year will look average this year and below average next year, until they fade away while others keep growing and working hard. The catch-up is real. |
| JClemente |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 09:31:10
The way I see it is that baseball has gotten a little out of control at the youth level. When I was growing up most kids played baseball at the rec level and then the best were selected for all stars during the summer. Travel ball was reserved for the older kids that were the best of the best, not the younger kids! To me it's a money grab but, hey when there is a demand somebody is definitely going to be there to supply. Where did we go wrong? Now I see parents obsessed with spending hundreds of dollars a year to buy the newest and best bat just so their child can hit the LONG BALL or possibly hit a HOMERUN. Now, a new bat standard is enacted and threatens the amount of homeruns and long balls and creates a slower game; So what! Baseball has survived this long at the youth level prior to these pop bats and I guarantee that it will survive long after. Maybe this new bat standard will help rebuild our rec programs across the country. Just my opinion. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 08:36:47
I was there too. And yes, for the purists, it was more like "real baseball". Hits were well-squared-up balls, and not 'miss hits' going 180-225'. Low scoring, defensive battles (teams still had to make the routine plays). Our team played in this tourney, and I feel the same as Chet, Ballcoach, and bballer-- it was SLOW.
The kids, who stick with baseball, have their whole lives ahead of them in wood/BBCOR, why rush it? Sure fundamentals may be sacrificed, in name of the trampoline bats, but those same bats also bring the excitement and success (however 'fake' or over-exaggerated it may be)-- those bats keep the games interesting and the success keeps the kids interested in the sport. SO MANY give up the game when the bats get heavier, and/or the field gets bigger, why rush it? As Chet said, I could see even further dwindle in the sport, especially in the rec ball arena, when less and less 'success' happens and the (already slow games) get even more painfully slow.
Just my 0.02 worth. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 03/27/2018 : 07:02:10
quote:
Originally posted by Chet
So I went back and watched our games at PG this weekend that another family had live-streamed. Wow, it’s nithing like the BBCOR transition I agree. Maybe once the manufacturers figure it out they will make better bats. I heard from another dad about the bat-projectile too. I think wood is the way to go but it got me To thinking about what impact this will have on the rec game, weaker and lesser talented kids will leave the game. As for 11u travel I’d hope that TC at least stays with The USSSA standard through next year. Watching players used to fielding rockets adjust to slow rollers will be rough. I agree with the real baseball aspects, but I think the USA standard at these younger ages is an issue.
USSSA tourneys may see a resurgence.
There has been a crazy amount of these weaker and lesser talented kids pouring into travel ball at ages 9u-13u. The fact is, baseball isn't for everyone. It does take skill. There is a saying at the older ages that you can take any well conditioned baseball player and put him in any other sport and he will do well, but you can't take any other athlete and put him on a baseball field and expect him the excel. Not everyone's kid is special, and not everyone's kid can SHOULD be able to play travel ball. I'm looking forward to more good kids in the sport, and less of the kids having a whammy bat that makes them LOOK good.
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| Chet |
Posted - 03/26/2018 : 21:08:08
So I went back and watched our games at PG this weekend that another family had live-streamed. Wow, it’s nithing like the BBCOR transition I agree. Maybe once the manufacturers figure it out they will make better bats. I heard from another dad about the bat-projectile too. I think wood is the way to go but it got me To thinking about what impact this will have on the rec game, weaker and lesser talented kids will leave the game. As for 11u travel I’d hope that TC at least stays with The USSSA standard through next year. Watching players used to fielding rockets adjust to slow rollers will be rough. I agree with the real baseball aspects, but I think the USA standard at these younger ages is an issue.
USSSA tourneys may see a resurgence. |
| Ballcoach34 |
Posted - 03/26/2018 : 14:42:08
Well I can now comment on my own question. We (Georgia Batmen 11U) played this weekend in the 11U division of the PG Spring Kick Off. The bats definitely had a huge impact and, yes, made it a completely different game. Based on my experience, the conversion was much more noticeable than a 13U team going to BBCOR. In four games, I saw maybe 2 good hard hits......1 by us, 1 against us. I enjoyed it for a change of pace, like a wood bat event, but I would not want play any more events than I had to with the USA bats. I could see them being a good bridge between 1.15 bats and BBCOR for 12s and 13s, however, I think the 11U game is more fun, and arguably more realistic, with the regular 1.15 bats. I am sure the USA bats perform a little better than wood, but its close enough that a league or event should just require wood.
I also saw that bat break in half Bballer. Our Rawlings Quatro also cracked. Obviously this can happen with any bats, especially when its cold, but still crazy to see it happen to a new bat. |
| bballer2226 |
Posted - 03/25/2018 : 23:21:26
The USA bats are garbage. I watched an 11u kid at Perfect game hit a ball off the sweet spot with a brand new USA bat and the thing literally broke in half at the shaft just above the grip with the barrel flying out towards the pitcher and the batter standing there holding the handle wondering what in the world just happened. Save your money and use a wood bat. IMO the wood bat has more pop than most of the USA bats anyway. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 03/25/2018 : 20:41:56
quote:
Originally posted by Chet
Anybody have any commentary after watching the 11’s and 12’s at PG this weekend. Didn’t make it myself but my son said it was like a different sport, even with a couple months of break in and use on team bats.
It was more like real baseball. The USA BBCOR style bats told the truth to a lot who thought they were elite hitters. Hard hit balls not making it out of IF like with the 1.15 bats. I see USA bats becoming the standard for many events next year. |
| Chet |
Posted - 03/25/2018 : 19:35:18
Anybody have any commentary after watching the 11’s and 12’s at PG this weekend. Didn’t make it myself but my son said it was like a different sport, even with a couple months of break in and use on team bats. |
| Bravemom |
Posted - 03/22/2018 : 08:17:23
quote:
Originally posted by South GA Baseball
For the record, I have been to Better Baseball multiple times during the past year and unless they have stopped using the foam balls I don't expect to get the same results as you would get from on the field play. I was asking for recommendations from those who have seen them in play but it seems like there are very few that have seen them in use for anything but recreation level play.
Don’t recall foam balls. But he immediately could tell which bat he liked and it matched the HITRAX machime’s recommendations based on exit velocity and distance...he never picked based on what was hot. He picked what he felt good with and it was cheap for momma to buy. He still hits better than the kids with the hot BBCOR Prime bat that goes for $500...I saved the money and took him to hitting lessons. |
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