| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| 12uCoach |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 10:14:56
Maybe I missed another thread, or maybe not many people noticed that there was a 9/1/2015 set of rules on the GA USSSA site. The most interesting section start:
7.08.H (Effective as of 1/1/2016) - For the purpose of the Pitch Count rules.
For 7U-12U, more than 20 in a day and you have to rest. 30 pitches for the older groups.
Too few? Just right? Not sure how teams with kids throwing 100+ pitches in a day will adapt. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| redsox23 |
Posted - 10/08/2015 : 22:42:48
Maybe the step back is to let USSSA figure out how the pitch counts are really going to be recorded/monitored in a smaller sample size and see what effect it has on the game. How many brawls per weekend for one score keeper having a kid at 19 pitches and the other team has him at 21....Will they need to have an official scorer now? If so, what would it cost? how can we add that money to entry fees for the team?
I would hope that coaches at the A/AA/AAA level take this as a sign that "it's coming" and they start to develop more pitching depth this year.....While it may look like protect the "good arms" I take it as a warning shot over the bow of the AA/AAA teams formed by Dads with a couple good pitchers that they abuse from 8-12u....... You have a year to fix the mess you created and start working with all the kids on the bump, not just your own.
Majors teams may have more pitching depth, and their worst pitcher would be a stud at AAA, but guess what, they aren't playing AAA and that kids barely sees the mound now because Major ball is all about WINNING!!! But under these rules, he will now be able to develop.
Lets play it out.....A major team has 6 studs, they split up Saturday 2 innings each. Each is pretty efficient 35 pitches. Come back very next day, not necessarily as sharp, still splitting innings evenly, but its up to 20 pitches an inning, still good enough and keeping your team in the game, you get to the third game, 18 innings today for the staff. Each now has thrown 95-100 pitches in a weekend. DO THAT WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT FOR 15 WEEKS. That is asking for trouble.
|
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/07/2015 : 13:18:57
For sure not enough coffee since I can't figure out how to quote tunrtwo's comment, so I will just respond.
I agree, Majors and special competitions have the most competitive teams, both coaches and players...and that is why I can't buy into the idea that this rule is there to slow over zealous coaches.
These pitch counts are designed to protect kids arms from over use...we have gone 3 pages about how potentially difficult it could be to have a pitching rotation with these rules...but we have gone round robin on this because we assumed each team had 2 top kids that could really pitch. That isn't the case with Major teams, their worst pitcher could be the star of a AAA team's pitching rotation. The idea they would have a problem with these restrictions is nearly laughable.
So, I say again...this rule seems designed to protect the "good" kids arms, not ALL the kids arms. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 10/07/2015 : 11:38:50
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Interesting.... Per the GA USSSA website: http://gausssabaseball.com
"Due to USSSA's continued relationship advancement with Major League Baseball, the MLB Network & MLB.com, the 2016 Rulebook includes Rule 7.08.I (USSSA Pitch Count). This new rule will be used in place of the traditional innings pitched rules in specially designated events ONLY and in the Major Classification ONLY. All regular USSSA Qualifiers, NIT, Super NIT & Dual Super NIT events will continue to use Rule 7.08.H (USSSA Innings Pitched) in all classifications."
Okay, maybe I am a bit grumpy today or something....BUT....is anyone else interpreting this rule as "We only need to protect the good kids arms?" Perhaps more caffeine is needed.
I'm thinking, MAYBE it has more to do with potentially slowing down 'over-zealous' COACHES of Major teams, going for the 'gusto' or riding their aces, all for the sake of wins!?!? (We may agree that Major is the most competitive-- abilities and coaching alike? Or not.)
quote:
Originally posted by hangwiffem
Wonder why the step backwards from the original ruling change....? Wonder what a "specially designated event" is.
Instead of 'punishing' all, for the recklessness of a few, maybe they felt giving teams an OPTION to participate in pitch count vs. innings pitched would suffice? If you've got a Major team loaded with pitching, the coach may view the 'challenge' of managing pitch count as something he'd like to tackle.... Bringing in a whole new role of 'coaching' and making it more about 'game management'. Maybe. Maybe not. |
| hangwiffem |
Posted - 10/07/2015 : 10:24:18
Wonder why the step backwards from the original ruling change....? Wonder what a "specially designated event" is. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/07/2015 : 08:45:04
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Interesting.... Per the GA USSSA website: http://gausssabaseball.com
"Due to USSSA's continued relationship advancement with Major League Baseball, the MLB Network & MLB.com, the 2016 Rulebook includes Rule 7.08.I (USSSA Pitch Count). This new rule will be used in place of the traditional innings pitched rules in specially designated events ONLY and in the Major Classification ONLY. All regular USSSA Qualifiers, NIT, Super NIT & Dual Super NIT events will continue to use Rule 7.08.H (USSSA Innings Pitched) in all classifications."
Okay, maybe I am a bit grumpy today or something....BUT....is anyone else interpreting this rule as "We only need to protect the good kids arms?" Perhaps more caffeine is needed. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 10/07/2015 : 08:28:53
Interesting.... Per the GA USSSA website: http://gausssabaseball.com
"Due to USSSA's continued relationship advancement with Major League Baseball, the MLB Network & MLB.com, the 2016 Rulebook includes Rule 7.08.I (USSSA Pitch Count). This new rule will be used in place of the traditional innings pitched rules in specially designated events ONLY and in the Major Classification ONLY. All regular USSSA Qualifiers, NIT, Super NIT & Dual Super NIT events will continue to use Rule 7.08.H (USSSA Innings Pitched) in all classifications." |
| turntwo |
Posted - 09/18/2015 : 16:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
turntwo and others. Here is a good article from ASMI on pitching mechanics. It's a good read and a good start for all pitchers.
http://web.usabaseball.com/playball/coaches/resources/pitching/biomechanics-of-pitching/
Great info. Love the "Conclusion" paragraph... Pretty much sums it up. Proper mechanics are paramount. |
| bballman |
Posted - 09/18/2015 : 15:25:05
turntwo and others. Here is a good article from ASMI on pitching mechanics. It's a good read and a good start for all pitchers.
http://web.usabaseball.com/playball/coaches/resources/pitching/biomechanics-of-pitching/
|
| PAstros15 |
Posted - 09/15/2015 : 15:31:45
Here's an idea... Just reduce the amount of innings to 6 maximum in all 2 Day tournaments. If a kid pitches more than 2 innings on Saturday he can't pitch on Sunday. Easier to manage, reduces the amount of pitching per kid and makes each team have to use more pitchers. Teams will constantly dispute how many pitches have been thrown. |
| Stolenbase12 |
Posted - 09/14/2015 : 13:02:35
After playing our first 9U USSSA tourney on Sunday, I can tell you many of the dominant Fall 9U AA teams will be hurting after Jan 1. We faced 4 different teams and all of them had pitchers that went 2 to 3 innings (60 to 70+ pitches not counting any warm ups). Once you got past their ace, they were average at best on the mound. We went 2-2 while pitching 9 of 10 players so I am confident that we will be able to get by with the new pitch count rules. My concern is the official tracking of the pitch counts. I would like to hear more about the guidelines/plan around the pitch count tracking (the how's, the who's, etc). I can already foresee many heated discussions between coaches/book keepers when two teams disagree on the pitch count totals. Just my 2 cents after playing this weekend. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 09/14/2015 : 08:56:45
Thanks for the breakdown Bballman! And I agree. Personally, I don't want to see my kid over-used, or to be honest, pitch that much at all, at the younger ages. But MOST importantly, I want his mechanics to be sound and solid, so that if he's called upon, he does it properly to limit injury (before overuse, before fatigued, before velocity). To me, it starts with mechanics. |
| bballman |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 22:36:51
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few.
Yes, that is what I meant. I also agree with your assessment you posted.
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
bballman, I'd like to hear your take on 'proper mechanics do not hurt arms' (even either 1- at a younger age, and/or 2- unless they are throwing 65 MPH).
I think the injury thing is very complicated. The doctors who are experts are not even sure exactly what the deal is. What I think is just my opinion - and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn.
I think there are many factors that go into injury. Maybe the biggest thing is genetics. Some people just have stronger ligaments, tendons, muscles, bones, etc... For some people, no matter what they do, they are prone to injury. For some, regardless of what they do, they may not get injured.
With that being said, I do believe that certain things can affect whether a player - pitcher in particular - winds up with an injury. The major things are overuse, pitching while fatigued, mechanics and yes, velocity. I'll take them one by one.
Overuse - while I don't believe there are "so many bullets in the gun", I believe that every pitch does some damage to the body. Being in shape physically helps with that because stronger muscles help protect tendons, ligaments and joints. But over time, the damage that is created by throwing has a cumulative effect and will catch up with someone. I think the experts believe this as well - hence the focus on pitch count limits.
Pitching while fatigued - there are two things that are affected here. One is muscles have gotten tired and are less able to protect the tendons, ligaments and joints. They become more prone to damage. The other is mechanics suffer as a result. I believe when mechanics suffer, players are more prone to injury.
Poor mechanics - I think mechanics are very specific to individual pitchers. However, there are certain principles which apply to everyone. For instance, I think a pitcher should never let his elbow drop below a line extending from shoulder to shoulder. Whether a pitcher throws "over the top", "3/4", "sidearm" or "submarine", this principle applies. The difference in these pitchers is the tilt of the shoulders. But, the elbow remains on a line extending from shoulder to shoulder. When fatigue starts to set in, the elbow drops below that line and added stress is put on the shoulder and elbow. There are other mechanical principles that should be adhered to that I just don't have the time to get into, but the principle is the same - when a pitcher gets tired, mechanics suffer and injury risk increases. And I do think mechanics matter at any age. Do what you can to protect your pitcher. Even if bad mechanics did not hurt the young pitcher, he is establishing bad habits that will be very difficult to change as he gets older. Might as well start doing things the right way from early on.
Velocity - ASMI has put out studies that show that a UCL "should" break at a velocity of 85 mph. They have tested and measured the amount of stress put on a UCL while pitching. Then they have taken the UCLs from cadavers and stressed them to the point that they snapped. That point is equivalent to a pitcher throwing 85 mph. Keep in mind that is for adults, not kids. I don't think there is a magic number for kids. I think every kid tries to throw hard. I think the the more you push the limits of how hard you throw, the more chances of injury. So, if one kid is trying to throw as hard as he can and it is only 40 mph, he is at just as much risk as the kid trying to throw as hard as he can and throws 70 mph. I think this because I think the kid throwing 40 mph probably has weaker muscles, tendons, ligaments and growth plates than the kid throwing 70 mph. For kids, I don't think it matters so much how hard you throw, but how hard you are trying to throw. It's not necessarily the velocity, but how much stress can your soft tissue handle before things give out.
Put all these together, mix and match them (genetics, how many pitches you throw, whether you pitch when tired, mechanics and velocity) and there is a chance of injury. No one knows what the right mix is. The question is, how do you minimize the chance for injury while still doing what you need to improve and get better? One way to work on getting better and lowering your chances of injury is to limit the number of pitches you throw. Another is to develop sound mechanics that will help reduce the chance of injury. There is no point in anyone throwing when they are fatigued. It is not smart whether you are a 9 yr. old kid or a 25 yr. old MLB player. Nothing good can come of that. There is nothing you can do about genetics. And you want to throw hard. Unless you throw hard, you will not be able to throw harder. Hope that makes sense.
So, when it comes down to it, there are three things to do to reduce chance of injury. Keep your pitch counts within recommended guidelines, work on solid mechanics and don't throw when fatigued. These will not eliminate injury, but they should decrease the chance of injury.
I'm sure I didn't hit on everything in my mind, but I hope I at least made a somewhat coherent statement here. I'll clarify anything that doesn't make sense to people if asked. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 21:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few. Sounds like good advice to me. Usually coaches (parents) have thin rosters because parents are worried about little Johnny's Jimmy's playing time. Then kids start falling out with overuse injuries and they're scrambling. Smarter approach is to have more kids on the team to avoid those problems to begin with. Kids need the rest and parents just need to get over their lil' Chipper sitting some for his own good.
Apologies for not using the sarcasm font earlier but the causes of arm injuries for youth pitchers are infinitely more complex than "throwing more than 65 mph." Dr. Andrews and the medical community are still trying to figure out why some players suffer UCL and shoulder injuries at all age levels amongst all the variables out there (including mechanics, overuse, genetics, etc.). But, hey, maybe that's because they haven't read this internet message blog!!
I asked bballman his advice, because his son is a VERY accomplished collegiate pitcher. Maybe his view would differ from 'mechanics aren't important at a young age'. |
| dad4kids |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 20:28:49
My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few. Sounds like good advice to me. Usually coaches (parents) have thin rosters because parents are worried about little Johnny's Jimmy's playing time. Then kids start falling out with overuse injuries and they're scrambling. Smarter approach is to have more kids on the team to avoid those problems to begin with. Kids need the rest and parents just need to get over their lil' Chipper sitting some for his own good.
Apologies for not using the sarcasm font earlier but the causes of arm injuries for youth pitchers are infinitely more complex than "throwing more than 65 mph." Dr. Andrews and the medical community are still trying to figure out why some players suffer UCL and shoulder injuries at all age levels amongst all the variables out there (including mechanics, overuse, genetics, etc.). But, hey, maybe that's because they haven't read this internet message blog!! |
| turntwo |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 18:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
Since pitchers can't hurt themselves with bad mechanics unles they're "throwing hard enough ... (this would be 65mph+)," I guess all those recommendations and innings limits should be scrapped. What a relief!! Keep throwing those sidearm curve balls, boys. You're good!
Agree.... bballman, I'd like to hear your take on 'proper mechanics do not hurt arms' (even either 1- at a younger age, and/or 2- unless they are throwing 65 MPH).
I'd have to say more shoulder and elbows are damaged, by not so much of OVER use, as improper technique. But I'm not a Dr. I just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night. |
| dad4kids |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 17:05:00
Since pitchers can't hurt themselves with bad mechanics unles they're "throwing hard enough ... (this would be 65mph+)," I guess all those recommendations and innings limits should be scrapped. What a relief!! Keep throwing those sidearm curve balls, boys. You're good!
|
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 13:44:12
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
CaCO3 we played many tourneys under 12 where we went 5 or 6 games on Sunday. If you seed lower but then scrape your way to the end it often goes 5 or 6, have even done this with 2 or 3 of those 5 or 6 games going into extra innings! Totally agree with turn two....I know we've had coaches who I definitely would NOT want to teach my kid to pitch... that is best left to the pros and not everyone wants to shell out the extra$$ for pro pitching instruction when their kid will never be a pitcher, just to accommodate these rules. If you have a pro in the coaching mix, great, then I suppose everyone can "learn" to some degree even if many will never throw consistent strikes, at least they can stand there and "pitch" without injury hopefully. In fact, coaches not skilled to teach proper mechanics being forced to "teach" the whole team could actually do more harm than leaving the pitching to the half (or hopefully more!) of the team who loves the mound and has learned proper technique on their own$. If EVERY player HAS to pitch and that's left up to Dad coach who has no idea of grip, throwing mechanics etc. you could actually increase overall injury rates. If they are only 20 crappy throws though I guess the kid will be ok. Anyway.. No amount of instruction will teach some kids how to pitch well anyway .. some just don't have (and never will have) that type of velocity/control. Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching.. have played with superb players who maybe are complete rock stars at the plate and in the outfield but have ZERO interest in the mound. Doesn't mean they should play rec ball, just means they shouldn't pitch.
crazyforbball I'm sorry, but I'm calling bull. You just don't have tourneys going 6 games on Sunday under 12u. 2 games on Saturday and 4 on Sunday to get to the 'ship, okay, but not 6 games on Sunday. If that were the case the triple crown rule of each pitcher getting an additional inning after the 5th game just wouldn't make sense, that is a "if you make it to the championship" rule. Please tell us the tourney type this occurred in.
To your point on unqualified coaches teaching pitching...that falls squarely into the "If Joey's daddy wanted him off the bench so he started his own team" category...well maybe this new rule will make people like Joey's daddy think twice about just forming a new team. A smart coach will hire in a pitching instructor to teach kids if he is unable to do it himself.
As for your statement "Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching."...I would go further and say they have no business in travel ball. There is this huge break with reality. Travel ball is suppose to be for the elite, the best of the best, the kids with great coordination early on who love the game. Travel Ball is not suppose to just be for any kid who wants to play year round.
As for paid coaching, I have said on here a million times it's a waste of money and those lessons are purchased by parents that are drinking the bad kool-aid man. If the kid makes it to 14u then you adjust his swing, or better yet, if he's good get him with coaches that can fix his swing early! The 10u kid doesn't need to have great form pitching! There are only 2 reasons for private lessons that are acceptable. 1. The kid is 14u and up 2. The kid is throwing hard enough to hurt himself (this would be 65mph+) Any other private lesson paid for is because mommy and or daddy have a dream, not because the kid "NEEDS" the lesson in order to play.
|
| hshuler |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 10:48:57
The "professional instruction" label gets more parents sucked in than anything.
Please try to find q good teacher who relates well to your kid versus a title. Now, that maybe an ex-pro or it maybe a former high school player but not everyone instructor is a good instructor...and ex-pro is a very loose term. |
| nwgadad |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 10:29:28
I am more for less games in a day. Why do we NEED tournaments? What about a 3 game set with Fri Home, Sat Away, Sun Home or vice versa. 1 game a day is enough. Think of the rest on the arms. Play 9 inning games. How often do the PRO's even play a double header, much less 4, 5, 6 games in day. While I know we are accustomed to tournaments, why not branch off. Do something different. Work on player development, not trophy development. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 08:56:31
quote:
And, YES! Everyone loves trophies! YOU get one, and YOU Renegade! And you, bballman! And you, and you, and you.... EVERYONE gets one! I feel like Oprah! Yeah! No parent left behind!
LMAO! That was SOOO priceless turntwo! I needed that laugh, thanks! |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 00:11:00
CaCO3 we played many tourneys under 12 where we went 5 or 6 games on Sunday. If you seed lower but then scrape your way to the end it often goes 5 or 6, have even done this with 2 or 3 of those 5 or 6 games going into extra innings! Totally agree with turn two....I know we've had coaches who I definitely would NOT want to teach my kid to pitch... that is best left to the pros and not everyone wants to shell out the extra$$ for pro pitching instruction when their kid will never be a pitcher, just to accommodate these rules. If you have a pro in the coaching mix, great, then I suppose everyone can "learn" to some degree even if many will never throw consistent strikes, at least they can stand there and "pitch" without injury hopefully. In fact, coaches not skilled to teach proper mechanics being forced to "teach" the whole team could actually do more harm than leaving the pitching to the half (or hopefully more!) of the team who loves the mound and has learned proper technique on their own$. If EVERY player HAS to pitch and that's left up to Dad coach who has no idea of grip, throwing mechanics etc. you could actually increase overall injury rates. If they are only 20 crappy throws though I guess the kid will be ok. Anyway.. No amount of instruction will teach some kids how to pitch well anyway .. some just don't have (and never will have) that type of velocity/control. Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching.. have played with superb players who maybe are complete rock stars at the plate and in the outfield but have ZERO interest in the mound. Doesn't mean they should play rec ball, just means they shouldn't pitch. |
| teamgamark |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 23:11:59
CaCO3Girl you are right on, seen too many times at several ages coaches (and team managers) worried about the win more than a kids arm. Also at 10, 11U and even younger who sit a kid who shows up for all the practices for they want a trophy (supposedly for all the other boys to get a trophy). Not seen a kid yet including my sons who cared about the trophies from Dizzy Dean or 11u once they get to high school. Granted I seen some top program coaches feel they are judged on the hardware and wear out a kid or crush a kids desire to play b4 he even hits puberty. Glad it is football season and hunting season. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 17:22:29
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
This is delving into participation trophy level with every kid can and will learn how to pitch. Some can't pitch, some aren't teachable to pitch, some have less than no desire to pitch, some should not have pitch in their vocabulary, etc.
I'm sorry WHAT? Is this travel baseball or is this rec ball? If you have a player that:
1. "can't pitch", teach them!
2. "aren't teachable to pitch", then what the heck are they doing out of the rec park?
3. "Less than no desire to pitch", I'm sorry, did I read this one right? If they want to be on a TRAVEL BALL TEAM they will need to investigate the term "TEAM" and do what they can to help!
4. "Should not have pitch in their vocabulary"...once again, what are they doing out of the rec park?!?!?
Oh, oh, oh... I know! I KNOW! Can I answer? PLEASE can I answer???
1. Technically you could rely on coach, but that would be irresponsible as a parent. Sorry, not sorry. Coach is nothing more than a manager at best. Get your instruction on the side, from a pro. Not a dad. SOME would prefer their sub-14 year old NOT to pitch, but rather catch, play INF, and OF.
2. Because mommy and daddy want him there!!! And want to brag little Joey plays travel (sorry had to give Johnny a break, he's been taking a beating lately) (sarcasm)
3. Refer to my "Know your role" and the selfish aspect this great game is moving to. OR, refer to answer 1-- some would rather their kid not pitch until their body is more developed and growth plates have grown and developed to take the stress.
4. See answer 2.
And, YES! Everyone loves trophies! YOU get one, and YOU Renegade! And you, bballman! And you, and you, and you.... EVERYONE gets one! I feel like Oprah! Yeah! No parent left behind!
Good news is, NFL starts tonight, and bow season opens Saturday. |
| baldy87 |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 17:03:07
I gotta agree with Renegade44 on this one. No one disputes that kids' arms need to be taken care of. I think the dispute is that with these rules, there will be more arguments because the rules won't be enforceable. Umps and TDs already don't enforce innings pitched or even illegal bats. It's up to the opposing coach to bring up infractions, and then the fireworks start. Same will happen with this. Travel ball is supposed to be about fewer rules - not more. Seems if you're having a problem with a coach that is pitching kids too much, you just talk to the coach about expectations of pitching frequency/pitch counts. If it doesn't improve, you change teams. It doesn't have to be a whole new set of rules put in place by a "governing body" that impacts everyone in a negative way (more arguments). Similar to bigger/more government, which is a whole other debate...... |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 14:08:04
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
This is delving into participation trophy level with every kid can and will learn how to pitch. Some can't pitch, some aren't teachable to pitch, some have less than no desire to pitch, some should not have pitch in their vocabulary, etc.
I'm sorry WHAT? Is this travel baseball or is this rec ball? If you have a player that:
1. "can't pitch", teach them!
2. "aren't teachable to pitch", then what the heck are they doing out of the rec park?
3. "Less than no desire to pitch", I'm sorry, did I read this one right? If they want to be on a TRAVEL BALL TEAM they will need to investigate the term "TEAM" and do what they can to help!
4. "Should not have pitch in their vocabulary"...once again, what are they doing out of the rec park?!?!?
I'm not trying to call people out on their personal choices but when the pediatrician wants to vaccinate my kid I don't research to see if I agree. When the movie is rated R I don't let my 6 year old watch it, and when the American Sports Medical Institute says my under 13u kid shouldn't pitch more than 20 pitches in a day unless he rests a day I listen, and always have. Is their system to protect pitchers arms perfect, NO, but if there is a 1% chance they are right who here is willing to sacrifice their kids arms to win a 10u trophy? |
|
|
