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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| turntwo |
Posted - 11/24/2015 : 12:26:35
I've noticed that a lot (most?) teams have 'off-season' workouts. I'm curious as to what this entails, in terms of additional cost, what is included in the 'workouts', is it team or individual based?
Adversely, if your team doesn't have these off-season workouts, why? Cost? Availability of place to have it? Allowing for a 'cool down' or healing period?
We've never been on a team that has OTA's or workouts, so I'm not sure of benefits or drawbacks. Also, is this more of an age or 'caliber of team' thing that either amps up, or phases out at certain ages?
Thanks for any input. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 12/30/2015 : 12:58:46
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Forget the weights for the young boys. Have them go do some farm work like in the old days if you want to get more muscle.
Thats what I'm talking about!!
Funny. My kid asked for an ax for Christmas so he could chop wood as part of his workout routine. He didn't get one. Knowing him, it would certainly hurt his 60 time. Harder to run with one leg . . . |
| bfriendly |
Posted - 12/22/2015 : 05:35:46
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Forget the weights for the young boys. Have them go do some farm work like in the old days if you want to get more muscle.
Thats what I'm talking about!!
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| LFconcessions |
Posted - 12/04/2015 : 16:07:41
CaCO - it was definitely strength training involving weight, but not the football like lifting that folks most think of. I agree with dad4kids - goal is to build functional strength that translates to the field.
When my son first started it involved Kaiser equipment and alot of Nautilus-like resistance machines that focused on high reps while also increasing weight for different muscle groups. Not free weights like many would think of. The sessions, and machines, worked his body from his neck down to his ankles & he was pretty whipped at the end of the workout.
Lots of different approaches at different places like Rapid Performance, Baseball Performance Center, GATA, & others that I'm probably leaving out too. Key is finding the right facility, with the right approach to best suit the goals for your son.
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| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 12/04/2015 : 15:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by LFconcessions
quote:
Personally if my kid was small for his age I would focus on speed and agility training because that would be where he could help contribute to the team in the most significant way. Getting a tiny kid to bulk up will only slow him down which seems counter productive to the "make him into a stud" concept.
CaCO - in our situation we didn't view it that way.
We've found that baseball specific strength training does not bulk up a kid, as it focuses on increasing strength while maintaining flexibility. A by-product of our son training when he was younger is that he was pretty cut & lean, and stronger from the training while increasing his athleticism.
Our goal - and I think most everyone's - is to support their kid to be the best that they can be.
LFconcessions, did this baseball specific strength training involve weight lifting? Or was it more similar to dad4kids explanation of medicine balls, push ups, and speed drills?
Dad4kids, when you say "free weight exercises" what do you mean by that? Are you talking about bench presses or dumbbells? I have to say my kid enjoys his dumbbells! |
| LFconcessions |
Posted - 12/04/2015 : 13:45:17
quote:
Personally if my kid was small for his age I would focus on speed and agility training because that would be where he could help contribute to the team in the most significant way. Getting a tiny kid to bulk up will only slow him down which seems counter productive to the "make him into a stud" concept.
CaCO - in our situation we didn't view it that way.
We've found that baseball specific strength training does not bulk up a kid, as it focuses on increasing strength while maintaining flexibility. A by-product of our son training when he was younger is that he was pretty cut & lean, and stronger from the training while increasing his athleticism.
Our goal - and I think most everyone's - is to support their kid to be the best that they can be.
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| dad4kids |
Posted - 12/04/2015 : 13:23:17
Parents may want to consider that the benefits of weight lifting for kids playing baseball are disputed. The risk for damaging joints with free weight exercises is significant. And no pre-pubescent is going to "bulk up"; they simply don't have the testosterone for it.
There are plenty of ways for a kid to get stronger and more athletic for baseball with functional exercises, including pushups, medicine balls, lunges, battle ropes, box jumps, sprints, etc. Those exercies build functional strength, are less likely to injure joints, and have better application to baseball activities than free weights. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 12/04/2015 : 09:08:16
I have to say turntwo, I'm glad to hear you were joking. Sadly, there are MANY parents out there who are not. That comment actually sparked the "Do you think your kid is falling behind" thread I started. I have been shocked at what I have seen and heard over the years of my son playing baseball. I know I am on here a lot and I like to stir stuff up but for the most part I let my kid go with his flow. I only step in when I see a health issue or something that gets him off his track of wanting to get better.
For example, a 5'10 160# 8th grader has no business in 13u swinging a drop 10. That's not safe for anyone involved and it doesn't help him grow his game, so I forced him to skip 13u. Could he have been a total stud at 13u, yeah, but being the best on the team isn't a good place to be for personal growth.
So many parents would have chosen the 13u option, the kid could play high majors, the kid could be a total stud...and I was like, so what? This "I want my kid to be a total stud" is the mentality of the parents that have their 10/11 year olds in strength training...they have to be the BEST, the STRONGEST, the STUD! Personally if my kid was small for his age I would focus on speed and agility training because that would be where he could help contribute to the team in the most significant way. Getting a tiny kid to bulk up will only slow him down which seems counter productive to the "make him into a stud" concept. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 17:05:31
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball.
How old is your son? I'm not sure how early to start my son on a similar program and I worry about him gaining too much muscle too fast and losing flexibility in the process.
10, he'll be 11 in April.
I hope you were being sarcastic then. That is way too young to be starting on weights...
It was a tongue-in-cheek comment I made over coffee-- which I even spewed as I was typing. No, my kid isn't "lifting", unless you consider firewood, raking leaves, shooting basketball, and running full-court (isn't that the 'season' we're in anyway?). |
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 16:49:06
quote:
Originally posted by LFconcessions
There is definitely an upside CaCO. Not all kids grow 12 inches when they are 12 like yours.
Mine started doing baseball specific strength training when he turned 13 - before shaving. When he first started we were told.... the workouts won't turn an average player into a superstar, but it will make your son a much better version of him. Even though he was usually the smallest on the field - I honestly believe the strength gains based on his workouts gave him the ability to compete, and succeed, with the bigger 'potential' kids.
My son now trains @ Rapid but I do not believe the younger kids do much, or as much, strength training as the older kids.
13u is particularly tough, I think, because the height and weight range is so enormous, basically teenagers and little boys playing on the same field. My son is on the smaller side right now, and hasn't shown any signs of puberty yet. He also hasn't done any strength training, but we're considering it, perhaps when he starts 8th grade next year. I'm interested in hearing what you think of Rapid for younger players. |
| hshuler |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 16:27:26
Last year at 13 (early puberty), my son started lifting with supervision from trained professionals and it was a combination of weights, body weight and bands. He was 5'10ish/150 lbs at the time. He definitely got stronger but also gained flexibility because of the emphasis on stretching. He started again last week since football is over and will lift with his 8th grade football teammates twice a week starting in January.
My personal opinion is that I would not let my kid lift at 10/11 because the risk isn't worth the reward for me...but to each his own.
Strength and speed training are designed to enhance God-given abilities it will not work miracles. That why guys train to cut that 60 time from a 6.9 to 6.5 and still run at 6.9. Now, technique matters but it probably will only shave .01 maybe .02 (really bad technique) of second off the time.
In everything, I see kids who go through the motions and aren't fully invested in whatever it is they're doing. Again, I think the key is matching your son's desire, focus, etc with the right situation.
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| Renegade44 |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 15:58:10
Forget the weights for the young boys. Have them go do some farm work like in the old days if you want to get more muscle. |
| LFconcessions |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 15:19:13
There is definitely an upside CaCO. Not all kids grow 12 inches when they are 12 like yours.
Mine started doing baseball specific strength training when he turned 13 - before shaving. When he first started we were told.... the workouts won't turn an average player into a superstar, but it will make your son a much better version of him. Even though he was usually the smallest on the field - I honestly believe the strength gains based on his workouts gave him the ability to compete, and succeed, with the bigger 'potential' kids.
My son now trains @ Rapid but I do not believe the younger kids do much, or as much, strength training as the older kids. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 14:09:14
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
I wasn't arguing with you CaCo, just providing an interested parent with some information.
But, based on the AAP's guidelines, free weights as well as weight machines can be part of a strength training program if the program otherwise complies with the guidelines. No need to limit prepubescent athletes to their own bodies or bands unless you want to. I think the key is to find a program that follows these guidelines and teaches the boys to do it safely.
Here's a review study summing up the policy statements and research and includes a more thorough discussion of the guidelines to follow:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445252/
Note that not only the AAP, but also the American College of Sports Medicine and the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine also agree that a well-supervised strength training program that follows the guidelines is "safe and beneficial" for children.
I noticed the other day that Rapid Performance says on its website that it trains athletes as young as 9, which seems pretty young to me.
What is the advantage of a weight program for little boys? That's what I don't get. Yes, my boy might pitch slower than your boy but my boy is 6 inches and 40#'s lighter...kind of expected. However, when my boy and your boy are in the 10th grade they will be roughly the same size...so what is the up side of a weight program? I can see a ton of down sides if not done correctly, but the up side, I'm at a loss. |
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 12:07:00
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
The American Academy of Pediatrics says its okay for preadolescent athletes over the age of 8 to do strength training if done with proper supervision. Their policy statement has some guidelines, so I'd look for a program that follows them:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/4/835
These are lines from the article:
"Strength-training programs may include the use of free weights, weight machines, elastic tubing, or an athlete's own body weight."
"In preadolescents, proper resistance training can enhance strength without concomitant muscle hypertrophy."
"Strength gains can be acquired through various types of strength-training methods and equipment; however, most strength-training machines and gymnasium equipment are designed for adult sizes and have weight increments that are too large for young children. Free weights require better balance control and technique but are small and portable, provide small weight increments, and can be used for strengthening sports-specific movements."
"Explosive and rapid lifting of weights during routine strength training is not recommended, because safe technique may be difficult to maintain and body tissues may be stressed too abruptly."
So, what I said above about " Until a kid shaves he shouldn't be involved in weight lifting. He can use his own body weight against himself through various exercises, including resistance bands, but he should NOT be actually lifting weights over about 20#'s."...kind of sounds the same to me.
I wasn't arguing with you CaCo, just providing an interested parent with some information.
But, based on the AAP's guidelines, free weights as well as weight machines can be part of a strength training program if the program otherwise complies with the guidelines. No need to limit prepubescent athletes to their own bodies or bands unless you want to. I think the key is to find a program that follows these guidelines and teaches the boys to do it safely.
Here's a review study summing up the policy statements and research and includes a more thorough discussion of the guidelines to follow:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445252/
Note that not only the AAP, but also the American College of Sports Medicine and the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine also agree that a well-supervised strength training program that follows the guidelines is "safe and beneficial" for children.
I noticed the other day that Rapid Performance says on its website that it trains athletes as young as 9, which seems pretty young to me. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 12/03/2015 : 10:46:57
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
The American Academy of Pediatrics says its okay for preadolescent athletes over the age of 8 to do strength training if done with proper supervision. Their policy statement has some guidelines, so I'd look for a program that follows them:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/4/835
These are lines from the article:
"Strength-training programs may include the use of free weights, weight machines, elastic tubing, or an athlete's own body weight."
"In preadolescents, proper resistance training can enhance strength without concomitant muscle hypertrophy."
"Strength gains can be acquired through various types of strength-training methods and equipment; however, most strength-training machines and gymnasium equipment are designed for adult sizes and have weight increments that are too large for young children. Free weights require better balance control and technique but are small and portable, provide small weight increments, and can be used for strengthening sports-specific movements."
"Explosive and rapid lifting of weights during routine strength training is not recommended, because safe technique may be difficult to maintain and body tissues may be stressed too abruptly."
So, what I said above about " Until a kid shaves he shouldn't be involved in weight lifting. He can use his own body weight against himself through various exercises, including resistance bands, but he should NOT be actually lifting weights over about 20#'s."...kind of sounds the same to me.
|
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 14:23:13
The American Academy of Pediatrics says its okay for preadolescent athletes over the age of 8 to do strength training if done with proper supervision. Their policy statement has some guidelines, so I'd look for a program that follows them:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/121/4/835 |
| bballman |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 14:10:37
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball.
How old is your son? I'm not sure how early to start my son on a similar program and I worry about him gaining too much muscle too fast and losing flexibility in the process.
10, he'll be 11 in April.
I hope you were being sarcastic then. That is way too young to be starting on weights... |
| turntwo |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 11:42:52
quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball.
How old is your son? I'm not sure how early to start my son on a similar program and I worry about him gaining too much muscle too fast and losing flexibility in the process.
10, he'll be 11 in April. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 10:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball.
How old is your son? I'm not sure how early to start my son on a similar program and I worry about him gaining too much muscle too fast and losing flexibility in the process. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 09:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball.
Turn-two...a word of caution. There is a debate about this, but here are MY beliefs. Until a kid shaves he shouldn't be involved in weight lifting. He can use his own body weight against himself through various exercises, including resistance bands, but he should NOT be actually lifting weights over about 20#'s.
I have heard horror stories so I'm going with the safer than sorry approach. I've heard of a talented 16u pitcher who can't throw any more because when he was younger he lifted weights incorrectly repeatedly in an effort to get stronger and now his back is toast. I have heard of a high school football player that wanted to bulk up, what he did was affect his growth with the weight lifting, he is 5'8 while his 3 brothers and father are 5'11-6'3.
Perhaps if done in an extremely controlled environment with supervision it might be okay. However, it is much easier for my son to understand "you will NOT at any time lift a weight over 20#'s", than for him to understand, well under the correct supervision, and that doesn't include your friends, or a random adult that may or may not know what they are doing...etc. My son hit puberty and his common sense left him. He understands short simple phrases like, "NO, not EVER"..then again even those are sometimes confusing *rolling my eyes* |
| turntwo |
Posted - 12/02/2015 : 09:08:16
Update:
I signed my son up for a few CrossFit boot camps, and some weight lifting/muscle building clinics. Obviously I do not want him to fall too far behind the 8-ball. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 18:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
@CaCO - I (personally) think parents know what's best for their kids when they're younger so I eliminated the "I don't like their uniforms" or "that team name sucks" from the equation. :-) Also, your kid may have been more mature than mine at ten.
I needed to get him into a more competitive situation but it wasn't for my ego. In fact, he struggled at times because of focus but that was a good lesson for him. I have never been adverse to seeing him fail. It CAN build character if managed properly.
This^^^^^
I personally wanted my son to step up in competition. However, I wasn't going to force him to leave a team of his friends to do so. I posed the question to him and he chose to step up in competition. As you stated above, the new required level of focus and attention to detail was a bit overwhelming to him initially. However, he has pushed himself to meet the mental requirements of his chosen path as he already had the physical tools. I have even translated the lessons learned here to be applied to his educational challenges as well. |
| hshuler |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 17:26:25
@CaCO - I (personally) think parents know what's best for their kids when they're younger so I eliminated the "I don't like their uniforms" or "that team name sucks" from the equation. :-) Also, your kid may have been more mature than mine at ten.
I needed to get him into a more competitive situation but it wasn't for my ego. In fact, he struggled at times because of focus but that was a good lesson for him. I have never been adverse to seeing him fail. It CAN build character if managed properly. |
| bballman |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 14:03:29
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3GirlThe kid who loves playing baseball will play anytime, anywhere, with any team, coached by anyone...he just wants on the field and in the batting order.
This is very true. My son has had some bad coaches thru the years. He knew they were bad even without me saying. It didn't matter to him, he just wanted to play and compete. When he was young and playing rec ball, he played for a team called the Brewers twice. We still refer to them as the bad Brewers and the good Brewers. The bad Brewers coach was horrible. This team lost EVERY game during the season. In the playoffs, they won one game and lost the next. It did not discourage my son from playing at all. His HS Varsity coach left after his freshman year. He loved that coach and he was a very good coach. The guy who took his place was not a good coach at all. Nice guy, but not a good coach. My son would never even have considered not playing on his HS team. And now in college, his coach is not the most personable guy. Son has never really connected with him. The coach likes to curse kids out, he gets pissed easily when things don't go right and he hasn't offered a lot in terms of actual coaching. Even so, my son loves playing baseball and would not even think of not playing anymore.
We didn't do a lot of team changing. He got assigned to teams when he played rec from 7 thru 11. The coach was the coach and he didn't really care that much. He kept playing. At 12, he started travel ball. The coach wasn't very good. The age change came about and he was able to play 12 again. He went with the same team, but at 12 again with a different coach. Played with them for the next 3 years. It was a great team. They disbanded after the 14u season and son tried out for one team and was offered a spot on another team. After 2 years, they disbanded and he had a couple offers. Both for the 14u team and the 17u teams he went on, I asked him which team he wanted to play on and his response was "Whichever team is better". He wasn't worried about getting play time or really who the coach was. He wanted to be on the team with the best players in order to compete against the best players.
So, when it comes down to it, if a kid loves baseball, he just wants to play and be challenged. Team politics or coaches won't even be part of the equation. They overlook those things because they want to play. There is no burnout or making excuses. Just put me in coach... I want to play! |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 13:20:32
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
"There is a HUGE difference in a kid who loves baseball and a kid who loves playing with his friends. The kid who loves playing with his friends might find other interests. The kid who loves playing baseball will play anytime, anywhere, with any team, coached by anyone...he just wants on the field and in the batting order."
^That's a great point!
Sometimes (not always) playing with friends can stunt growth and development. As a dad and former coach, I never let my son make the decision as to where he'd play until this year. I gave him the available options and he chose his football and baseball teams this year because he's now mature enough to have some say. When he was younger, I made the decision for him to leave a group of friends in both sports because it was best for him. Although, he may not have understood it then, he does now.
LOL, wow, and I did the exact opposite. Up until this point I was pretty casual about where he played. Now that there are other factors to consider I wouldn't let him stay with the team he wanted to stay with. I gave him 5 options/tryouts of what I deemed "more acceptable" teams and he chose from there. |
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