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ECB.Phenoms
20 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2019 : 16:54:21
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I've coached at East Cobb for several years. From what I hear from others, our fees are about in line with other larger programs. Many of the fees listed in some of these posts are off by a significant margin. That accounts for a portion of the gap that exists between what is and what "should be". But, what most parents don't see are the little costs that add up. Helmet Decals $125 minimum.
Everyone sees the tourney entry fee of $550 - $750. What you don't see is the $150 gate fee. Multiplied by 15 tourneys.
Batting gloves $40 each. ECB requires two per player.
Embroidery for bat bags $200
Catchers bags and catchers equipment $700
This past wknd my team went through almost two boxes of baseballs. At $5 each, that's almost $120 for one wknd.
Cage rentals, field rentals, team instruction, belts, socks, player pullovers, coaches jerseys. The list goes on and on.
Most just see the cost for helmets, bat bags, baseballs, jerseys and tournaments entry fees. Just scratching the surface. As for the hats ? You are kidding yourself if you think you are getting a hat for $17. Not with a logo on it. Certainly not with the team name embroidered or a players number. Any paid coach only getting $4,500 a season isn't worth having. Promise.
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StickyStick
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2019 : 17:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtandgrass
As a parent with a kid in a "pro" coached 11u team. I paid for fall and summer combined, around 3K.
What we got was a lot of hype and promises, uniforms, bags and around 12 tournaments scheduled for both seasons (but rainouts has caused us to play less then 12). The pro-coach owns the facility, so we had access to indoor workouts, after having half of Nov, all of Dec and half of Jan off.
We played 2, maybe 3 PG tournaments, all the rest were local tournaments.
Coach wouldn't communicate with parents. Asst coaches and parents posted schedules, the coach was apparently too busy to be bothered. But yet, would be annoyed if people kept asking him for answers. You wouldn't hear from him and you'd have to basically beg for basic information (ie.. are we practicing today?) and he liked to be sarcastic with his response. All parents would say is "but he's a great coach, so it's worth dealing with his not telling anyone anything". Sorry, but disrespectful to your PAYING customers to ignore texts and leave everyone in the dark week after week because "he's a great coach". He came to learn that parents were intimidated by him, so he knew he could continue behaving this way because there was never push back by parents.
We refuse to pay our coach for additional lessons as we feel you are then paying to play, so we still paid an outside instructor to teach what our pro-coach didn't do.
Was he a great coach? My son learned a lot of in's and out's of the game, for sure. But, my son's hitting, fielding and pitching, were all influenced by the paid instructor. The coach ran the practice in a group setting, none of the kids received personalized coaching unless, you paid for his services outside of practices. He was at every single game and practices, but there were days, you didn't even know where you were practicing until last minute, even with multiple parents asking over and over again.
We are looking forward to tryouts and fingers crossed, won't have to deal with this type of coach behavior again.
That's terrible! This year, my son had a great coach and communication was never a problem. Could you send me a message(click on my username and press email message) to tell me the organization or name of that coach? My son is trying out for many 12u teams this year and we definitely would not want to have the person you mentioned as a coach. |
Edited by - StickyStick on 06/10/2019 19:03:02 |
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KentMurphy
96 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2019 : 08:56:57
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtandgrass
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Anyone want to dispute is welcome to do so. Where does the justification of these $3000 plus fees come from? Seem like many are gaining extra tax free income.
In our case, the pro coach owns the organization and has an indoor facility he owns. However, the field used is rented from the city, sometimes the county (depending on the field used). So our fee of 3k paid for the basics; equipment, uniforms, game fees and practice field rental. Anything over is then as a salary to the coach. We did know this going in, so my contention is not where the money is going since he is a for profit organization, but what I am not ok with is a team that ends another season with arm injuries of the kids, under a coach who's resume has a pro background, but he runs the organization and his team as if he's a rookie. I'm not okay with having to beg someone to answer a basic question (ie- do we have practice indoors or outdoors today? What time? )
In typical fashion, we don't even know if we are playing this weekend or not. We'll likely find out after parents start asking for some kind of update. It's inconsiderate and unprofessional to treat customers this way, but why would he change his behaviors when parents are so intimidated by him they won't push back because he's "a pro". It's a power trip is all that it is.
So, if anyone has good recommendations of coaches Northeast of Atlanta, send me a message. I'd also like to know which ones to steer clear of as well.
This is the norm, rather than the exception when dealing with 'pro' coaches. They may say, 'you're paying me for instruction, game-day management, and my baseball knowledge-- NOT my attention to detail with 'business' activities'.
The best (and not saying perfect) situations I've see/heard of, is you have the 'pro' coach focusing on baseball stuff, and an 'in-tune' parent that is more like a GM. The GM may help with uniforms, scheduling, dues, tourneys, etc.. The coach has to communicate with one person to get the word out. Maybe the GM doesn't always ask questions, so when they do, they are answered. Maybe the GM controls the team finances, so IF the 'pro' wants to get his check this month, he knows who to answer in a timely manner.
Also, understand, as your son gets older, most coaches deal less and less with the parents. Mom/dad call/text coach, 'why isn't my son playing'... coach's reply: 'ask your son, he knows'. And some coaches just don't deal with helicopter parents. Demanding or high-maintenance parents. If coach sends out a communication in Feb., "moving forward we will practice on Tue/Thur from 7-10, unless you hear otherwise".... Well, you should then know, unless you hear different around 6 PM, you'll always have practice. Some of these 'pros' don't think they have to 'spoon feed' a daily reminder, or even weekly reminder to adults.
I'm not saying any of this could be applicable to you, I'm just saying, that more times than not, you're not going to find a 'pro coach' who's great at running a team (including communication) from top to bottom. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 07:40:23
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Kent is 100% accurate.
quote:
Originally posted by KentMurphy
quote:
Originally posted by dirtandgrass
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Anyone want to dispute is welcome to do so. Where does the justification of these $3000 plus fees come from? Seem like many are gaining extra tax free income.
In our case, the pro coach owns the organization and has an indoor facility he owns. However, the field used is rented from the city, sometimes the county (depending on the field used). So our fee of 3k paid for the basics; equipment, uniforms, game fees and practice field rental. Anything over is then as a salary to the coach. We did know this going in, so my contention is not where the money is going since he is a for profit organization, but what I am not ok with is a team that ends another season with arm injuries of the kids, under a coach who's resume has a pro background, but he runs the organization and his team as if he's a rookie. I'm not okay with having to beg someone to answer a basic question (ie- do we have practice indoors or outdoors today? What time? )
In typical fashion, we don't even know if we are playing this weekend or not. We'll likely find out after parents start asking for some kind of update. It's inconsiderate and unprofessional to treat customers this way, but why would he change his behaviors when parents are so intimidated by him they won't push back because he's "a pro". It's a power trip is all that it is.
So, if anyone has good recommendations of coaches Northeast of Atlanta, send me a message. I'd also like to know which ones to steer clear of as well.
This is the norm, rather than the exception when dealing with 'pro' coaches. They may say, 'you're paying me for instruction, game-day management, and my baseball knowledge-- NOT my attention to detail with 'business' activities'.
The best (and not saying perfect) situations I've see/heard of, is you have the 'pro' coach focusing on baseball stuff, and an 'in-tune' parent that is more like a GM. The GM may help with uniforms, scheduling, dues, tourneys, etc.. The coach has to communicate with one person to get the word out. Maybe the GM doesn't always ask questions, so when they do, they are answered. Maybe the GM controls the team finances, so IF the 'pro' wants to get his check this month, he knows who to answer in a timely manner.
Also, understand, as your son gets older, most coaches deal less and less with the parents. Mom/dad call/text coach, 'why isn't my son playing'... coach's reply: 'ask your son, he knows'. And some coaches just don't deal with helicopter parents. Demanding or high-maintenance parents. If coach sends out a communication in Feb., "moving forward we will practice on Tue/Thur from 7-10, unless you hear otherwise".... Well, you should then know, unless you hear different around 6 PM, you'll always have practice. Some of these 'pros' don't think they have to 'spoon feed' a daily reminder, or even weekly reminder to adults.
I'm not saying any of this could be applicable to you, I'm just saying, that more times than not, you're not going to find a 'pro coach' who's great at running a team (including communication) from top to bottom.
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Edited by - Punishers on 06/13/2019 14:04:30 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 16:37:12
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| Wish these teams having tryouts posted include the price. That way people would not be wasting their time if the price is not in their budget. Try out fee? Really? |
Edited by - Punishers on 06/13/2019 17:23:53 |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 17:58:35
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A partnership? No.
A parting of the contents of your wallet to his. Yes
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2019 : 20:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Wish these teams having tryouts posted include the price. That way people would not be wasting their time if the price is not in their budget. Try out fee? Really?
Do not think everybody pays the same is why not listed. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2019 : 08:46:48
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Say it is not so!!
That is something people should be informed of before making a decision. Add that to the list of questions to ask.
quote:
Originally posted by BREAMKING
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Wish these teams having tryouts posted include the price. That way people would not be wasting their time if the price is not in their budget. Try out fee? Really?
Do not think everybody pays the same is why not listed.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2019 : 09:37:47
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| The head coach at Michigan said what??? I wonder where he got that from? |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2019 : 11:54:07
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| What did he say? |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
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Steelehitting
8 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2019 : 17:09:14
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| How much does it cost to play at Team Elite? Because I always see Team Elite in PG and PBR tournaments? My son is wanting to tryout , 15u but I have heard that it cost an arm and leg to play for them. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2019 : 18:08:16
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how much?
Are you asking before or after the $10+ per family member gate fee per day?
Want results? Find somewhere that takes you direct to the college campus to play in front of the coaches. Your team vs. 2 other similar teams. They are out there, I didn't know either, til it was almost too late.
$800.00ish includes uniforms, 14 players, every player placed at juco to D1 level. Played 12 weekends, at 12 campuses (no offsite venues), with the college coaches present, and each player pretty much found the level they should be at. And nobody gouging at my wallet to enter the stadium. Hint: Ain't nobody tweeting out about these type events, cause its not a hype business.
Not in some rented out field, empty promise of the coaches being there, 3rd party promoter charging gate fees. That process is just a sham for most players. And we all at some point fell into the trap.
No need for the third party promoters, that add nothing but extra expense to the process. Go direct. Or go discretionary money broke chasing the PBR, PG, etc. nonsense dream being sold to you.
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2019 : 18:27:35
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Lets boil it down even more.
For years we traveled around to PG, PBR, Impact, Dynamic, whatever flavor branded showcase tournaments. Usually played one game a weekend at the college field and 2 or 3 more at high school fields. BIG name orgs. Minimal results, minimal contact, minimal help. Hotels, gate fees, high costs, vacations off work, etc. Weeklong events. Excessive rosters, rotational never known in advance playing time.
Stupid, stupid stupid. It was a race to no where.
Better way. Play in prearranged private tournaments at the colleges. We did a little of everything.........played vs current Juco fall teams, played vs D2 freshman teams, (hint the college staff was coaching your opponent!), played several 4 team round robins with the D1 coaches in our dugout and observing on the field. Got results.
That's not gonna happen for most players at the PG and PBR cattle call tournaments. At some point you gotta stop falling for the empty marketing ploys.
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KentMurphy
96 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2019 : 12:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Lets boil it down even more.
For years we traveled around to PG, PBR, Impact, Dynamic, whatever flavor branded showcase tournaments. Usually played one game a weekend at the college field and 2 or 3 more at high school fields. BIG name orgs. Minimal results, minimal contact, minimal help. Hotels, gate fees, high costs, vacations off work, etc. Weeklong events. Excessive rosters, rotational never known in advance playing time.
Stupid, stupid stupid. It was a race to no where.
Better way. Play in prearranged private tournaments at the colleges. We did a little of everything.........played vs current Juco fall teams, played vs D2 freshman teams, (hint the college staff was coaching your opponent!), played several 4 team round robins with the D1 coaches in our dugout and observing on the field. Got results.
That's not gonna happen for most players at the PG and PBR cattle call tournaments. At some point you gotta stop falling for the empty marketing ploys.
This sounds like a utopia. However, there’s some crucial details missing... such as which team? Org? I mean, you’re giving them so much kudos, go on and tell us who!!! Maybe other orgs may see the continual ‘money grab’ tourneys aren’t the best Avenue when their numbers decline because everyone is moving to the more utopia situation. See, what you describe is for THE KIDS. Not for the org, park, or tourney orgs. Again sounds like a utopia. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2019 : 17:30:15
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Not in Ga. Won't help unless local. Point was look around, get educated some as early as possible, don't dismiss the setup if you find it just because its not what everyone else is doing.
Now lets say a national academy in a neighboring SE state tried this for half its top national level team's schedule, back in Summer/Fall after freshman year, it could have worked well if they stuck with it. The majority/most of the parents threw a fit that they weren't 'doing what everyone else was'. Team went a different direction in Fall and right back to 'what everyone else is doing' approach. And it was downhill from there. They/We all shortchanged ourselves from all games on college filed with coaches right back into bumblebutt HS fields with no one around. Stupid.
Ended up with one high academic D1 recruit, two high academic D3 recruits, and a D2 full academic/baseball ride recruit. Three of those 4 players joined a bus tour that went north on a high academic showcase 2 week trip that hit 12 or so colleges. It was NOT thru their academy. The D2 player had limited funds available and could not go with the other 3 despite similar grades. |
Edited by - Renegade44 on 06/23/2019 17:47:20 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2019 : 10:48:54
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| It may sound like a utpoia, but Renegade44 is absolutely correct about playing at the universities rather than the money grabbing showcase events. |
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KentMurphy
96 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2019 : 18:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Not in Ga. Won't help unless local. Point was look around, get educated some as early as possible, don't dismiss the setup if you find it just because its not what everyone else is doing.
Now lets say a national academy in a neighboring SE state tried this for half its top national level team's schedule, back in Summer/Fall after freshman year, it could have worked well if they stuck with it. The majority/most of the parents threw a fit that they weren't 'doing what everyone else was'. Team went a different direction in Fall and right back to 'what everyone else is doing' approach. And it was downhill from there. They/We all shortchanged ourselves from all games on college filed with coaches right back into bumblebutt HS fields with no one around. Stupid.
Ended up with one high academic D1 recruit, two high academic D3 recruits, and a D2 full academic/baseball ride recruit. Three of those 4 players joined a bus tour that went north on a high academic showcase 2 week trip that hit 12 or so colleges. It was NOT thru their academy. The D2 player had limited funds available and could not go with the other 3 despite similar grades.
To parents, isn't it (selfishly) about our kids? Not the org and number of tourney wins or 'National Championships'? A team/academy/org should provide the avenue/stage for your player. Wins are secondary (or at best, a by-product) of hard work and TEAM play. Right?
Who in their right mind wouldn't want this? A 'Southeast Tour' of round robins and scrimmages AT college campuses? Seems like a no-brainer. Why isn't this popular? Parents of recruit-able-aged kids really care about a silver cup more than DIRECT EYES ON by college coaches/recruiters? Maybe it's harder than that... Maybe getting coach/coaches on-board to put something together, or the college to host is more difficult. IDK.
Of course, some will argue, some of PG's 'big events' offer a 'one-stop-shop' for recruiting cordinators/scouts, when you have 300+ teams in one event, where 8-10 fields are running at once.
Personally, I prefer my son be one of 30-40 kids in a round robin for the coaches to see PLENTY of, vs a huge tourney. |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 10:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
https://www.facebook.com/BradGalliTV/videos/375430279991531/UzpfSTEyOTAwODIwNzY6Mjg4MDMyNTY2MTk4NDUzNA/
I really like that he said that. I’m sure you know the numbers. NCAA baseball doesn’t look anything like the professional baseball when it comes to diversity. Don’t get me wrong, professional baseball isn’t perfect, but they have a different “pipeline” that the NCAA doesn’t have. Without a doubt I think the financial constraints are what keep most minorities from being able to play NCAA baseball.
I’m not for diversity just to have it for numbers sake. I know there are individuals that could bring a lot to the game if they could afford to play and develop long term.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 11:38:20
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Diversity in sports, like anything, is going to be controversial.
Why, because how do you determine the numbers and what would be the CORRECT number of each race on a team and what races should be on the team. Would you also put guidelines for diversity on all sports or would it be just the big 3 (Baseball, Football, and Basketball).
There are plenty of kids from every race that don't have the financial means to play/train in the travel ball money pit. |
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Teeillz
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 13:40:07
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The economics are directly in line with the lack of African American kids playing. It’s known that the AA demographic as it relates to wealth pales in comparison to our Caucasian American counterparts. S If you play travel and go to these events or go to any D1 game, you'll see we aren't there unfortunately. This is near and dear to my heart with two boys playing that love the game and the lack of representation. There are a plethora of reasons- cultural aspect of the "unwritten rules" of the game, the financial aspect, the scholarship aspect, the room for fields in inner cities, marketing of baseball and on and on. It’s not about a "quota" per say but about leveling the playing field a tad and making an effort to see the kids that differ whether racially, ethnically, or financially from the “status quo”.
It's only controversial IMO if people aren't truthful about how some things are and take it personal/get defensive. There's room for everyone to love the game. I’d love to see it more.
Now as for fees… mannnnnnnnnnnn listen!! Hahahaha Just like anything else, just be sure you’re getting exactly what you’re paying for! Don’t just go with an org because of the “NAME”, find coaches that care, see how they interact with their kids, ask them what’s their vision as it relates to baseball/the player, and be realistic about YOUR KID’S talent/opportunity/place in this crazy world of baseball.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Diversity in sports, like anything, is going to be controversial.
Why, because how do you determine the numbers and what would be the CORRECT number of each race on a team and what races should be on the team. Would you also put guidelines for diversity on all sports or would it be just the big 3 (Baseball, Football, and Basketball).
There are plenty of kids from every race that don't have the financial means to play/train in the travel ball money pit.
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 14:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Diversity in sports, like anything, is going to be controversial.
Why, because how do you determine the numbers and what would be the CORRECT number of each race on a team and what races should be on the team. Would you also put guidelines for diversity on all sports or would it be just the big 3 (Baseball, Football, and Basketball).
There are plenty of kids from every race that don't have the financial means to play/train in the travel ball money pit.
Diversity doesn't mean quota. I'm not talking about having a set number of a given race/religion or however you want to categorize. Given the diversity in the US, you would automatically expect baseball to look the same way. That is unless the system is being manipulated in some way.
I think people must understand that there are people that are gatekeepers. Meaning, they control who gets access. As far as college baseball goes, I would say these are the coaches, recruiting directors and college admissions people. If people in these positions don’t go outside of the box or just stick to the already defined way of doing something, you end up missing out. I think this is why diversity is important at all levels. It just seems logical to me that if an under represented minority gets to a spot like coach, recruiting director, etc. I think they can be more in-tune with the different routes that individuals take. In other words, if I came an unusual route, I may be more open to looking for others coming an unusual route due to my own unique experience.
I do think some of the things that Michigan has done are great in terms of how they approach recruiting. I will tell a story that was told to me by a co-worker. This co-worker has a kid playing baseball at a D1 school that made the tournament this year. Years ago when their son was being recruited they told me about a conversation they had with a representative from a west coast D1 school. The kid is African American and I’m assuming it was the recruiting coordinator but the school rep actually told the parent, and I’m paraphrasing “I usually don’t look at black kids. They are usually athletic and want to do other things and are not as focused on baseball.” The parent was shocked to hear this and of course I was too. At the end of the day, how does someone turn a positive (athleticism) into a negative? On top of the dismissive notion that a black kid “can’t” somehow be a serious baseball player is offensive. It’s the attitude that believes that a baseball player looks a certain way that I don’t like. There is no rule that says a kid can’t be a great baseball player and be outside of the norm. It’s the narrow-minded focus of individual people along the way that make it hard. That recruiting coordinator didn’t like diversity, there are some other things I would like to say, but I will just leave it there. Their experience may be one thing, but unless they have experienced everybody in the world, you can’t generalize. There are always exceptions.
NCAA baseball in the US is a very white sport. That’s not a problem by itself. I think when that attribute gets expanded and placed around other parts you start to run into problem. When someone extrapolates that to “we need to recruit in schools and areas that look a certain way” a lot of good players can get overlooked.
I understand that there are certain barriers along the way. I would hope those in and around the game find a way to break down the barriers. A good ballplayer is a commodity, doesn’t matter what they look like. Money is tough. Once people get a taste of it, I don’t see them offering up their services for less today than they did yesterday. Bats and gloves are not going to get cheaper. PG or the next big organizer of tournaments isn’t going to start charging $300 a team for a 15/16u tournament.
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GA Ballers
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 18:11:41
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| In a nutshell. Baseball has turned into a "country club" sport. Exclusive. If you know what that means. |
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bball1010
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 19:06:47
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| I'll tell you what the primary reason blacks don't play the sport as they do other sports. Ok, yeah, maybe the financial requirements have an impact, but there are whole lot of whites who are also impacted by that as well. The primary reason is simple, it's the sport of baseball. It's a slow sport, lot of standing around. If you are a very good athlete, you typically grow up playing faster sports with more action such as basketball and football. You play football all season running your butt off, hitting other guys, etc to running the court in basketball. You constantly are in action, with ball in hand, making plays. Then you step on the baseball after all that, and maybe a couple balls are hit to you in the outfield in 2 hours. You get a few at bats and maybe you get on base a couple of times and get a chance to run a few times at best. That's it, that's the day! Compare that to having the ball in your hand all game, playing point, running up and down the floor, scoring, etc. It's tough to make that adjustment. It's a complete change of pace. I just don't think the interest is there as much. That simple. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2019 : 20:10:49
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<<I think people must understand that there are people that are gatekeepers. Meaning, they control who gets access. As far as college baseball goes, I would say these are the coaches, recruiting directors and college admissions people. >>
Those are the decision makers, but not in the same sense the gate keepers.
The gate keepers are better defined as the academies and the showcases, and the PG's and PBR's of the world. You have to buy access at the gate to first reach the decision makers. You have to pay their fees to get access to whats behind the gate.
And the more the decision making group relies on these type of gatekeepers the more the gatekeepers will become in charge. And the worse college baseball will become. (you do see the many rec ball type plays occurring every game right??, in between the radar gun readings?)
Think about it? Most of the young college recruiters out scouting the fields now are of the age they may have played in the beginnings of the academy and showcase system. All they know is this and they may have too cozy relationships with certain academies/organizations to even take the initiative to venture beyond their gated community.
Got to get back to Legion and High School being the primary scouting grounds.
(Player on text message and /or email being returned level with coaches)
What showcase will you be at? None
We'll be at these 3, can you make it? Uh.... Coach they cost $700 to $999 and a weekend for travel, hotel cost on top of that. Can't attend...
... I can send you video's, plus here are my references including current coach, my volunteering ex pro coach, and 3 competitor coaches from HS conference. Here is my local schedule with 2 hours drive of your college. Plus SAT scores.
>>>>>Silence<<<<<<
Fast forward a few weeks....
Hey coach following up, I'll be on an academic tour of campus on X date, hope you like the videos, can we meet to discuss?
Coach: Sorry I'm 14 hours away at a showcase, can you be at XYZ showcase next week for me to get a look???
>>>>>Silence<<<<<<
Fast forward a few weeks....
hey coach just wanted to touch base again, I have been accepted at your school, got a great academic package, so I really won't need baseball money, Just like a full roster spot shot during Fall to prove myself.
Coach: Sorry we are full, I would not advise a walk on attempt.
(And this basic has been repeated over and over and over)
=====================================
Now? Where did he fill his roster from? Almost exclusively??
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Edited by - Renegade44 on 06/26/2019 09:21:49 |
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How much does it really cost??
