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Coach Pete

31 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  20:57:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PG, Noticed that all your fall tournaments are by graduating class? This is going to present a problem for all the kids that are going to be Sophomores but play at a 15u age. Your event details say that these tournaments are not by age, but by graduating class. A lot of kids who have already made 15u teams, will not be eligible to play. Is this the plan for the Spring too? If so, there's going to be a lot of kids that will need to find new teams.

SuperStar

257 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2019 :  23:17:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The fall is when most all players change to their new teams anyway. For example, 15U players from existing summer teams will go to 16U teams this Fall.
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Coach Pete

31 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2019 :  11:57:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And 14u go to 15u, of course, but my point is a 14u player moving to 15u that will be a Sophomore will be forced to skip 15u because he’s not a Freshman.
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Candler70

7 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2019 :  12:38:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll put my post to your same question here since you've posed the question multiple places.

Oh, they're eligible all right; however you're team is gonna have to play in Sophomore division even though they are "15U" team and most likely primarily made up of freshmen. Gonna put some teams at a clear disadvantage - those that have 1 or 2 roster spots occupied by higher graduating class than most of the team. They will always be playing "up"
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Candler70

7 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2019 :  12:49:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I could see some rearranging of teams to get an edge up, especially if this stays the same in Spring. With all the "reclassifying" done around metro area, you could even put together a "freshman" team made up of kids 1-2 years older than many of the other freshmen teams, lol. And they can bulldoze their way over the younger fellas....
So, to benefit the team (any team) you're best bet is to have most of your roster spots filled by one graduating class, and any outliers ONLY be kids in the lower class.
Like I said earlier, if you've got 12 freshmen and 3 sophomores; gotta play in sophomore division and potentially get constantly boatraced by teams made up of all sophomores, unless you have some stud freshmen.
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PGADMIN

150 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2019 :  13:27:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All, we appreciate your inquiry regarding the PG Age Restrictions. What you are seeing for the fall events is the way we have always treated our High School aged tournaments every fall. If you look back historically, you will notice the trend. As far as implementing this into the 2020 Spring/Summer and beyond, that is not the case. Those events will still have the same age restrictions, just like past years.

If any extreme changes are ever made in the future, we will have an official announcement to notify all travel teams.
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Coach Pete

31 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2019 :  15:47:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PG, Thanks for the clarity. I get that's how you've always done it, but with this way, a player on a 15u team that is graduating in 2022, is unable to play in the Fall in your tournaments unless they pick up with a 16u team.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2019 :  10:32:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Pete

PG, Thanks for the clarity. I get that's how you've always done it, but with this way, a player on a 15u team that is graduating in 2022, is unable to play in the Fall in your tournaments unless they pick up with a 16u team.



This comes up every year for the 9th and 10th grade kids. This has been PG's stance for a long time.

The simple way out is that the kid plays 16u in the fall and 15u in the summer; or they play with their grad year all year long. PG only does this for the fall so college coaches can see grad years all at the same time.
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SuperStar

257 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2019 :  12:29:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Long time no see CaCO3Girl.
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Ross

51 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2019 :  13:28:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is not complicated. When you get to HS, play with your grade.
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Gapper

64 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2019 :  15:16:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If he plays with his grade, his jersey will say East Cobb Flamingos on the fron...but if he plays down then he can be on the Astros and dominate all the little kids.
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KentMurphy

87 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2019 :  19:42:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gapper

If he plays with his grade, his jersey will say East Cobb Flamingos on the fron...but if he plays down then he can be on the Astros and dominate all the little kids.



That’s only the cool kids that do that.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2019 :  11:02:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar

Long time no see CaCO3Girl.




Lots of changes...thought I'd finally get back here and check in. I hear #5 is doing well. Good luck!
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SuperStar

257 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2019 :  18:44:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl

quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar

Long time no see CaCO3Girl.




Lots of changes...thought I'd finally get back here and check in. I hear #5 is doing well. Good luck!



Yeah you didn't miss much. I haven't been on here much either. #5 had a good summer. They will be graduated before you know it!
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Jackets96

34 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2019 :  01:23:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gapper

If he plays with his grade, his jersey will say East Cobb Flamingos on the fron...but if he plays down then he can be on the Astros and dominate all the little kids.


If every kid who is the same age were in the same grade then your comment might hold, but there is a huge number of Apr-Aug birthday kids that are a grade lower than they could be. It leaves the other May-Aug kids having to decide between ”playing down” with a lot of kids their age or playing “on grade” and being a year or more younger than many of the kids.
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Renegade44

211 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2019 :  10:34:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?


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Gatravelbaseball

39 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2019 :  13:30:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nobody complains about kids playing with their age and NOT their grade at younger ages. That only happens around Freshman year, and that's mostly because that's when puberty and the reality of "real" baseball significantly widen the gap between the higher level and lower level players.

PG apparently thinks it makes sense to classify by grade in the Fall starting Freshman year, which is fine. I think most people acknowledge that starting in high school, grade level should usually trump age.

But why not every Fall and Summer from that point on? Why is it even an option for kids to "play down" at those older ages? By then or soon thereafter it should be clear how they fit at their grade level. If they are behind, they should find a AA team and play against their age at a level that suits them better.
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RUSemiPro

93 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2019 :  19:25:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And that is why we have so many repeat the 8th grade...

Nothing to do with academics, nothing to do with social issues, everything to do with physicality.

I like the idea of playing with your graduating class, it simplifies the issue.

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?




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TaxiMom

149 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2019 :  14:25:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's the conundrum we're facing right now, and would love advice.

Son played 14u last year -- summer birthday and is currently a rising sophomore. So if he played with his age next year, he'd be 15u. Playing with his grade, 16u. He REALLY wants to play with his grade.

Has been on a high/elite major team for years. But doesn't have his "man muscles" yet -- barely shaving -- so his arm doesn't stack up against the 16us who have the muscles and play at the level he's used to. He physically doesn't look the part (even though he's nearly 6').

Do we stay at 15u on a high level team, or move to 16u and drop down to a lesser program than he could get at 15u?

He's screwed, whether he chooses 15u or 16u......isn't he? I mean, when he gets "looked at" and is compared to his grade, he's always going to be behind, isn't he?

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?





Edited by - TaxiMom on 07/28/2019 14:29:53
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Renegade44

211 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2019 :  17:22:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are going to need some good honest representation and help from the high level team. After all that is really what they are being paid for at this point, access to their network and contacts. Not much practicing and development going on for summer and fall showcase at 15U or 16U or 17U. It will be mostly show up and play. Sling it for velocity, air it out for exit velo. Executing winning fundamental baseball skills meh, not so much.

If you are already in high school you really have no choice but to play with grad year. Its going to be an uphill battle with the excessive focus on velo numbers, etc.

Recruiting system is broken. Taken over by money and middlemen gatekeepers.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2019 :  10:13:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom

That's the conundrum we're facing right now, and would love advice.

Son played 14u last year -- summer birthday and is currently a rising sophomore. So if he played with his age next year, he'd be 15u. Playing with his grade, 16u. He REALLY wants to play with his grade.

Has been on a high/elite major team for years. But doesn't have his "man muscles" yet -- barely shaving -- so his arm doesn't stack up against the 16us who have the muscles and play at the level he's used to. He physically doesn't look the part (even though he's nearly 6').

Do we stay at 15u on a high level team, or move to 16u and drop down to a lesser program than he could get at 15u?

He's screwed, whether he chooses 15u or 16u......isn't he? I mean, when he gets "looked at" and is compared to his grade, he's always going to be behind, isn't he?

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?








There is no reason to leave the high level team, ESPECIALLY if your son is getting real playing time. I've seen MANY kids that are on high level teams be recruited for college and even go in the draft who played with their age and not their grade.

This play with your grade stuff is old school and irrelevant now. Check out the top teams of this past summers huge WWBA events. Even the teams that called themselves the blah blah blah 2020's were NOT all 2020's. I'm serious, do your homework. The play with your grade stuff is old news, and fall ball has never been the prime teams.

I've seen too many kids be on a good team and fall for this play with your grade stuff and poof they loose all traction. This is a real scenario that I saw:

Kid is playing on a high level team, they are making it through to bracket at every PG event. He plays around 60-70% of the time on the team. Coach from his grade level year starts talking about seeing the real competition, seeing the people he will be fighting for a scholarship against in a few years, come to our team, we are one of the best and could really use you, you will have to compete for playing time, but you should stop playing against the younger kids, you are better than that.

Kid decides to leave his team and go to the grade level team. What the coach forgot to mention is he already has a set group of kids and your kid is the back up guy. He's on the field maybe 20% of the time and is told that while he is good, so and so has been on the team for 3 years and I know what he's capable of, perhaps you should try another position?

And thus begins the downward spiral. The age level team won't touch your kid anymore because they left the team and can't trust him. The other grade level teams can't remember seeing your kid play on the super duper grade level team he was on, and the age level people didn't see him play at all last year and question why the kid would want to come back down a level, ah, he must not be that good and couldn't handle it at grade level.

This happens every single year, don't let your kid be that kid who was on a roll and then everything stops for him. If he's desperate to play with his grade put him up for fall and bring him back down for Summer.

Edited by - CaCO3Girl on 07/29/2019 10:15:16
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morrsco

49 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2019 :  10:24:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't understand why the book Moneyball gets lumped into this criticism. In the book the Oakland A's purposely ignore velocity when evaluating players in order to gain an advantage. The scouts for other MLB teams focused on velocity while the A's data analysts searched for pitchers with high groundball rates and low onbase allowed percentages. The chapter on 80 MPH submarine pitcher Chad Bradford lays out their approach.

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?




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Renegade44

211 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2019 :  17:41:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not a reference to the A's book.

Reference to write a excessive large check each year to the academy and spent 1000's on showcases to buy your hype and your future over committed college spot.

Travel ball is money ball.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2019 :  09:01:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Not a reference to the A's book.

Reference to write a excessive large check each year to the academy and spent 1000's on showcases to buy your hype and your future over committed college spot.

Travel ball is money ball.


Agreed, it use to be called daddyball when dad's created a team because their son wasn't properly appreciated by all known teams. Then dad's eventually drop out of the picture to be replaced by that guy who played D1 and was in AAA baseball for 5 years. He's got the team and the "connections", all you have to do is pay him $5000 for the privilege of your son sitting on the bench while he begs his old AAA teammates, who are now college coaches, to come watch his teams practice, while wearing full collegiate gear. The old AAA buddy gets a few hundred for sitting in the bleachers and pretending to take notes, and the daddy from daddyball gets to tout that his son was just looked at by XYZ college!

P.S. With very few exceptions this is what most teams are. #moneyball
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Candler70

7 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2019 :  14:28:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

Well this is a real word decision problem for recruiting.....

1.) You can play down your grad class (Your age) and maybe look more physical, have friendlier goals to meet on radar gun, and exit velo nonsense measurements that are oh so the benchmark of what makes a player most recruitable.

2.) Or you can play your grad class (or higher!) and give up a year or two of age and physical appearances. Challenge yourself to compete at a faster level, always be at a physical disadvantage, figure out what it will take to win vs older stronger competition, etc......
Challenge yourself to find a way to successfully compete.
And then hear.....you lack a few mph to be recruitable blah blah. Like your makeup, great ball player, always seem to come out the winner, but but but if only you threw 88 instead of 86 right now for your class.

And there is the reality of the recruiting cesspool. Many of those who choose to challenge themselves to the max on the field will be ignored, while the crowded field of age play and grad year holdbacks will get most all the hype and results.

Great system that moneyball and showcase recruiting has created isn't it?






For PG Fall, you actually cannot play down your grad class(age) and I think many are confused on this, which is the point of Coach Pete's OP. If you're a sophomore, that's where you're team is gonna play doesn't matter if you are 15 or 16. And if you decide to do "16U", and there happens to be a younger 16 old junior on your team, guess what, that team must play in the underclass division. For fall, age has nothing to do with it at all. But that's when most folks find their team, Fall into the next spring/summer - this is the issue. But it's just the Fall, so really what does it matter.
Same for TaxiMom's post, they could be on a 15U team based on age, but her son is a sophomore, so even if every other kid on that 15u team are freshmen, they must still play in sophomore division. If they sign up in freshmen division, they have an ineligible roster, cause they have a 2022 grad on it. But they could do a 16U/sophomore team and if all the kids are sophomores, then that's the division they would play as well, just like the 15U team. Again, just for Fall though.

Edited by - Candler70 on 07/30/2019 15:17:04
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BBallDad21

17 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2019 :  21:36:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We were of course concerned with this and freaked and started to look elsewhere because we HAD to find a 16u team for my 15yo 2022 grad. However, most of the 15u teams out there are going to have 2022 and 2023 kids on it. This means that we will just play up 16u as will most of the mixed grad teams. it will very likely all even out and its only a few tourneys at best. This means we stay with our team and will do so until he graduates.
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