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Hurricane
351 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2008 : 11:23:20
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| I was watching alot of 8 and 9 year olds short arming the ball and wondering if this could be natures way of protecting the arm from strain? Just because an adult throws one way doesn't mean kids should do it before all their growth plates have stopped. Just a thought. |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
I was watching alot of 8 and 9 year olds short arming the ball and wondering if this could be natures way of protecting the arm from strain? Just because an adult throws one way doesn't mean kids should do it before all their growth plates have stopped. Just a thought.
Hurricane:
The short answer is that you are correct. Short-arming is a way for pitchers of all ages to lessen the stress on the front of their pitching arm shoulder and inside of their pitching arm elbow. I define short arming as bringing the baseball back with the elbow tightly bent and then bring the baseball up quickly.
IMO what complicates matters for 8 year olds is that they moving away from the way they would naturally throw a baseball to a way that baseball coaches believe they should pitch. Watch a 2 tear old throw a ball. Generally they get into the strongest kinesiological position possible (what we smart guys call throwing "like a girl".). Unfortunately we change this.
Having said the above pitchers have to apply force over as long a distance as possible. If you are a coach, at a minimum, kids have to be taught to take the baseball out of the glove with thir hand UNDER the baseball. They have to pendulum swing the ball up to shoulder height. The glove foot has to land before the ball reaches shoulder height. They must never point the ball toward 2bd base/cf at the top of their wind up.
I would also recommend toy javelins to extend the the driveline without looping.
e
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tfb
34 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 10:10:50
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| Check out HS or College womens fastpitch softball. All the (good) infielders short arm all their throws. I really didn't notice this until my daughter made the HS JV team. Obviously fastpitch softabll pitching is a different story. |
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 14:19:17
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A lot of that has to do with the small infields they play on. If you long arm a ball from the left side of the infield against a slap bunter she will be safe every time. I don't think this has anything to do with arm preservation just the nature of the fields.
As for pitching, if we could get the baseball pitchers to use the same motion, we would not have any worry about shoulders, elbows or anything. Stealing would be a breeze as I am not sure how to pitch that way from the stretch. |
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 23:59:48
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First, what is your definition of short arming? Mine is taking the ball directly from the glove to just behind the ear and then start the throwing motion at a 90 degree arm angle. Major league catchers throw this way. Infielders are taught to throw this way if they need to make a quick throw. All other position players and pitchers are taught to wind up, why; velocity!!!!
It's real simple, if pronate and Dr. Mike Marshall's way worked; we would see the high schoolers, college players and professionals throwing this way. I am not saying their way is not safer and less harmful but no one has proven they can consistently get batters out using this method. To be successful, you need velocity. Are players going to get hurt, unfortunately; yes. But professional auto racing is the same in a way, safe, slow drivers do not make it to the top. While speed kills, (or causes injuries) it also wins!!! |
Edited by - Gold Glove on 02/13/2008 09:03:28 |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 13:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove
Mine is taking the ball directly from the glove to just behind the ear and then start the throwing motion at a 90 degree arm angle. Major league catchers throw this way.
Glove:
I quote $200MM as the number for major league baseball injuries every year. Dr John D’Aquisto, PhD, a former major league pitcher puts the figure at $500MM. I suspect I am too low and he is a bit high but it is a sign of a profligate society that no one seems to care.
What you describe is the quickest way to blow an Ulna Collateral Ligament that I know of. Thankfully, while catchers don’t entirely throw correctly they seem to be moving away from what you describe. At least I hope so.
It is critical that the arm is not at a right angle right before you start driving it forward toward your target no matter what the position. I was at a game this fall and the pitchers were bringing their arms up at a perfect right angle before they drove it toward home plate. I had never seen a whole team be consistent like this. I was surprised that only one of them blew his arm out during the game. This was a visiting team by the way.
The reason position players don’t hurt their arms is they don’t throw as often and they use the crow hop throwing motion. Catchers and pitchers don’t have that luxury so they have to try and internalize it. Not easy. Oh and position players are out there on the playing fields this week with arms that are killing them.
I have nothing against winning. I’d prefer not hurting the kids in the name of winning, however.
I suggest you and everyone else write everything you believe on throwing a baseball down and file it away. Open that file in a couple of years and see how much has changed. Five years ago I would have bet a lot of money that no one would ever get on the internet in 2008 and suggest that a catcher throw a baseball in the way you suggest. Nevertheless, I still remain optimistic.
e
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 22:42:16
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I love your passion, however misguided it is. Dr. Marshall has been preaching this method for many more than 5 years and I am waiting to see results.
As I said before, every baseball dad would be chasing you and your friend down if this method was proven to be effective in getting batters out.
I can't wait see this 13 y/o pitcher. He will be bunted and stolen on to death!
And the arm is not at a perfect 90 degree angle before they "drive" it to home plate.
After playing with and coaching over 1,000 players I am still waiting to see my first "?blown?" Ulna Collateral Ligament, whatever blown means.
How many $MM on position players are lost every year, since you say they all throw incorrectly? You also contradict yourself when you say they don't have to internalize, but they are still in the outfield hurting?
I have yet to see aa 3B, SS, 2B or 1B crow hop? HMMMM And catchers are not moving away from what you say I describe. Catchers have been throwing from "behind the ear" since Mickey Cochrane played the position.
Can't wait for your reply! |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 11:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove
I love your passion, however misguided it is. Dr. Marshall has been preaching this method for many more than 5 years and I am waiting to see results.
As I said before, every baseball dad would be chasing you and your friend down if this method was proven to be effective in getting batters out.
I can't wait see this 13 y/o pitcher. He will be bunted and stolen on to death!
And the arm is not at a perfect 90 degree angle before they "drive" it to home plate.
After playing with and coaching over 1,000 players I am still waiting to see my first "?blown?" Ulna Collateral Ligament, whatever blown means.
How many $MM on position players are lost every year, since you say they all throw incorrectly? You also contradict yourself when you say they don't have to internalize, but they are still in the outfield hurting?
I have yet to see aa 3B, SS, 2B or 1B crow hop? HMMMM And catchers are not moving away from what you say I describe. Catchers have been throwing from "behind the ear" since Mickey Cochrane played the position.
Can't wait for your reply!
Glove
As for bunting this 13 y/o to death..great point. I don't think it will happen but I'll keep you posted. Since you appear to be what I call a "traditionalist", I assume your pitchers bend over at the waist when they release their pitches. (I saw a kid last fall take quite the shot to the head in this vulnerable position.) Beyond the inefficience of this position, it is also much more difficult to respond to a bunt than if you are standing tall and rotating 180 degrees.
As far as the arm being at 90 degrees when you start driving it to home. What degree do you have it at and why? As I said these kids caught my eye because 1. they were strong looking pitchers and 2. to the naked eye it looked like their arms were in a perfect right angle when they started driving the ball home.I guess if you were there you would have seen the kid snap his arm. I'm not a big fan of ASMI but go to their Q&A section and you'll see plenty of examples.
I think I said position players don't hurt themselves as much as pitchers. If you've been in baseball awhile that should be obvious. I asked Dr D'Aquisto how he arrivd at $500MM for all Pro baseball players. He told me he simply added the numbers. I'm in a hurry but I'l post a piece of an injury report later.
If you are a coach and your position players are not crow hopping/sliding to their target then they should be in my opinion. This goes beyond safety. It's more effective.
I don't like to mention local teams but go over to the premier park in Cobb County and watch the catchers from the premium teams. In any event you are making a huge mistake having catchers throw like you describe.
God bless these kids, because they keep the pain to themselves. I hope you are not one of these coaches feeding these kids Motrin/Advil to relieve the pain. I have a friend whose (college age) son is handed 4 Advil before every hame by the trainer. This kid is getting a try out with the Red Sox. You'd probably consider him a success. I don't.
Thanks for the response,
e
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 23:50:01
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quote:
Glove
As for bunting this 13 y/o to death..great point. I don't think it will happen but I'll keep you posted. Since you appear to be what I call a "traditionalist", I assume your pitchers bend over at the waist when they release their pitches. (I saw a kid last fall take quite the shot to the head in this vulnerable position.) Beyond the inefficience of this position, it is also much more difficult to respond to a bunt than if you are standing tall and rotating 180 degrees.
As far as the arm being at 90 degrees when you start driving it to home. What degree do you have it at and why? As I said these kids caught my eye because 1. they were strong looking pitchers and 2. to the naked eye it looked like their arms were in a perfect right angle when they started driving the ball home.I guess if you were there you would have seen the kid snap his arm. I'm not a big fan of ASMI but go to their Q&A section and you'll see plenty of examples.
I think I said position players don't hurt themselves as much as pitchers. If you've been in baseball awhile that should be obvious. I asked Dr D'Aquisto how he arrivd at $500MM for all Pro baseball players. He told me he simply added the numbers. I'm in a hurry but I'l post a piece of an injury report later.
If you are a coach and your position players are not crow hopping/sliding to their target then they should be in my opinion. This goes beyond safety. It's more effective.
I don't like to mention local teams but go over to the premier park in Cobb County and watch the catchers from the premium teams. In any event you are making a huge mistake having catchers throw like you describe.
God bless these kids, because they keep the pain to themselves. I hope you are not one of these coaches feeding these kids Motrin/Advil to relieve the pain. I have a friend whose (college age) son is handed 4 Advil before every hame by the trainer. This kid is getting a try out with the Red Sox. You'd probably consider him a success. I don't.
Thanks for the response,
e
Pronate,
I appreciate the tone of your response.
We teach our pitchers to be in the same ready position as our infielder when they finish. So hopefully they are in a position to make a defensive play but more importantly, in a position to protect themselves.
Now that you have added a step (crow hopping/sliding), I am in agreement with you. I am not sure that you understand me when I am referring to how catchers are being taught to throw. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
And position players will never hurt their arms as much as pitchers because of a number of issues , suxh as the amount of use and the torque the arm goes through.
Yes, I am a traditionalist, all the way to sanitaries and stirrups. And no I will not throw a young man with a sore arm. You notice I said throw, not pitch. At our practice Thursday, I shut 3 players down whose arms were slightly sore while doing infield/outfield situations.
Keep up the passion!
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 11:46:04
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[Gold:
If you are teaching your pitchers to square up to home plate when they finish I suggest you take a close look at MLB pitchers this season. You will see more and more turn their pitching shoulder and hip more toward home plate when they finish.
But I'd like to explore how you feel catchers are being taught to throw. You wrote above.."First, what is your definition of short arming? Mine is taking the ball directly from the glove to just behind the ear and then start the throwing motion at a 90 degree arm angle. Major league catchers throw this way."
I'm curious how widespread you feel this method of throwing is in NW Georgia? I would like to know where you feel the throwing elbow is in relation to the throwing hand at the moment the elbow starts moving forward to throw the baseball to second base.
What is closer to the backstop at the instant the elbow starts forward? The elbow or the hand? I hope other chime in.
The children you coach are well served by your passion. It is only when we fearlessly go on record for what we believe, that we all benefit.
e
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 00:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Pronate
[Gold:
If you are teaching your pitchers to square up to home plate when they finish I suggest you take a close look at MLB pitchers this season. You will see more and more turn their pitching shoulder and hip more toward home plate when they finish.
But I'd like to explore how you feel catchers are being taught to throw. You wrote above.."First, what is your definition of short arming? Mine is taking the ball directly from the glove to just behind the ear and then start the throwing motion at a 90 degree arm angle. Major league catchers throw this way."
I'm curious how widespread you feel this method of throwing is in NW Georgia? I would like to know where you feel the throwing elbow is in relation to the throwing hand at the moment the elbow starts moving forward to throw the baseball to second base.
What is closer to the backstop at the instant the elbow starts forward? The elbow or the hand? I hope other chime in.
The children you coach are well served by your passion. It is only when we fearlessly go on record for what we believe, that we all benefit.
e
The throwing arm and leg will almost naturally be ahead of the other side due to the energy of the pitching motion, but we teach our pitchers to be in a "ready" fielding position once their throwing side foot lands.
I probably didn't make myself clear, 90 degrees is the desired angle as the arm becomes parallel with the chest, not before. The catcher's elbow should be behind the hand at the beginning of the forward motion.
I, too; would love to hear others thoughts. |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 18:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gold Glove
The throwing arm and leg will almost naturally be ahead of the other side due to the energy of the pitching motion, but we teach our pitchers to be in a "ready" fielding position once their throwing side foot lands.
I probably didn't make myself clear, 90 degrees is the desired angle as the arm becomes parallel with the chest, not before. The catcher's elbow should be behind the hand at the beginning of the forward motion.
I, too; would love to hear others thoughts.
Gold:
Because pitchers stride too far they are forced to bend at the waist at release. Now the question becomes is their glove hand near their shoulder or down by their head (where it, sadly, usually ends up. Even with the traditional pitching motion the glove hand is critical. It is probably the biggest problem with local pitchers IMO.
As for catchers, I suspect you have heard the advice to "look at the best" when you want to perform a skill. I include a link for a local pro catcher. Is this what you would consider a good throwing position for a catcher? This misguided(if someone with a $26MM contract can be considered misguided) young man is going to be looking up the word "subscapularis" if he has not already. In any event, the next time you see the advice to "look at the best" send along the picture of this catcher. And as bonus coverage you can send along the picture of the equally misguided LHP in the clip, who seems to believe that if you continue to bang your head against the wall you will get a different result.
http://projects.ajc.com/gallery/view/sports/braves/0217braves/?cxntnid=sprt021808e
I hope things are going well for your team.
e |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 08:11:50
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| Perhaps I'm miss guided, but, comparing the throwing motion of catchers to pitchers is like comparing apples to oranges. Two totally different motions for two totally different reasons. As a coach I have had a lot of difficulty teaching full time catchers to pitch due to their unusual arm slot. They just don't seem to get enough on the ball not to mention the ball beinb visible longer for the hitter. I look at it like a rubber band. The further u stretch the rubber band before u release it the faster it goes. Perhaps as Pronate says, This is bad for the arm. I personally don't think the Pronate approach has been around long enough to determine if it truly does protect the arm. It is possible that some other type of injury may manifest itself if this approach does get wings and take off. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 09:24:24
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| No, pronate's approach has been around for a long time. There just aren't any success stories with it. I think there is some merit with some of the techniques he espouses, just don't think the total idea will take hold. Dr. Marshall has been doing this for, what 30 years? Just don't think it's going to happen. And there is a reason for that other than a massive, nationwide conspiracy against Dr. Marshall and his teachings. |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 11:18:38
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[quote]Originally posted by biged
Perhaps I'm miss guided, but, comparing the throwing motion of catchers to pitchers is like comparing apples to oranges. Two totally different motions for two totally different reasons. As a coach I have had a lot of difficulty teaching full time catchers to pitch due to their unusual arm slot. They just don't seem to get enough on the ball not to mention the ball beinb visible longer for the hitter. I look at it like a rubber band. The further u stretch the rubber band before u release it the faster it goes. Perhaps as Pronate says, This is bad for the arm. I personally don't think the Pronate approach has been around long enough to determine if it truly does protect the arm. It is possible that some other type of injury may manifest itself if this approach does get wings and take off.
Ed:
The title of the thread is shoert arming. Someone made the point that catchers are taught to "short-arm". As a service to the coaches out there, I am merely pointing out that the way catchers are taught to throw in these parts is very injurious. And given the catcher in the clip only throws out 20% of the runners who attempt to steal not very effective (I suppose we could blame it in the fact that the pitchers use the traditional pitching motion which takes longer to get rid of the ball).
Your analogy to a rubber band, while technically incorrect, is nevertheless a way to teach what you are try to accomplish. By "stretching the rubber band" what you are saying is that you are lengthening the distance over which you apply force. I'd prefer you tell the kids about Newton's Second Law of Motion.
e
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 15:00:39
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Pronate:::
Now, I'm really confused.. The catcher in the clip is short arming and that is bad and the pitcher is fully extended and that is bad as well. I looked up Newton's 2nd law and I think u are trying to say that if u are not applying force directly to the ball u are not getting the most out of your velocity. |
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Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2008 : 22:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by biged
Pronate:::
Now, I'm really confused.. The catcher in the clip is short arming and that is bad and the pitcher is fully extended and that is bad as well. I looked up Newton's 2nd law and I think u are trying to say that if u are not applying force directly to the ball u are not getting the most out of your velocity.
Ed:
I confused the issue by commenting on the pitcher (Mr. Hampton). He is reverse rotating too far which has nothing to do with short arming. Sorry
I think everyone agrees that pitchers should not short arm the ball. You are correct that it is very difficult to teach a catcher to pitch because of the way catchers are taught to throw. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to let a catcher pitch anyway. The problem with the way the catcher in the clip is throwing has to do with applied anatomy. As a general rule, you should never start driving a baseball forward from a position where the hand is ahead of the elbow (as you saw in the clip). When this catcher does this he drives his throwing upper arm (humerus) forward while at the same time his throwing forearm bounces backwards. It is at the moment when the forearm bounces backward that the shoulder takes a nice jolt. This puts tremendous stress on the UCL as well. If this young man or those responsible for his safety would invest in some high speed cameras they would clearly see this.
Now as for Isaac Newton and his second Law of Motion: Applied to throwing a baseball, this law tells us that the velocity of a baseball is dependant on the amount of force we apply to a baseball and the length of time we apply that force. (No matter how we throw the baseball the mass stays constant). Your elastic band reference speaks to this. As you note when you stretch (lengthen) the elastic band what you are saying is that you are lengthening the distance over which you will apply force to the baseball. This is the scientific basis for why short arming the ball is not desirable for pitchers.
Catchers obviously do not have the time to throw a ball as a pitcher would but they can not be shortening their pathway as the gentleman in the pitcher does. Way too much unnecessary stress.
e
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 11:10:07
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| Thanks it is a bit clearer now |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 09:41:49
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I posted this Feb in 2008 we talked about in 5 or so years. Well it's been that long what does everyone think now? Lets bring this topic back up and discuss it again.
Thanks, |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 10:44:27
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I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly, but the link no longer has the clip) that the Braves catcher that was in Pronate's clip was Brian McCann. I believe McCann had shoulder surgery awhile back, but it was to repair his labrum, not his subscapularis muscle. Approximately seven years after Pronate's post, McCann seems to be doing well enough, what with his $85 million 5-year contract with the Yankees.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not a doctor or a coach and have no idea who has the right ideas about how catchers should throw. Just pointing out that if Pronate was predicting serious shoulder trouble for McCann, that seems not to have come true. |
Edited by - Newbie BB Mom on 01/09/2015 10:58:06 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 10:44:43
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| I think it's pretty obvious. Dr. Marshall has retired and I haven't heard anything from any of the Marshall guys for a while now. Not only here, but on any message board I go to. The only Marshall pitchers I have seen with any type of success have moved further and further to the "traditional" mechanics in order to achieve that success. I doubt you will hear from Pronate any time soon. Not sure if he has given up on the Marshall mechanics or if he just got tired of fighting the battle. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 11:35:40
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| And here I am trying to figure out if my son the catcher is throwing right, LOL! Guess I should have checked the date! |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 12:54:55
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| I just think it was interesting to find an old post of mine where people talked about in five or so years. I too saw the Mike Marshall stuff and thought he was off his rocker. I would search for those guys he worked with and never could find one that did that well. Maybe the arm is protected but if you aren't playing baseball does it really matter? |
Edited by - Hurricane on 01/09/2015 13:56:48 |
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2015 : 10:39:29
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| It's been 6+ years and I am still here coaching, teaching and preaching Arm Care. If anyone is interested, Google: NPA and Tom House and watch how he is teaching. IMHO, he is the leader in Arm Care, injury prevention and teaching great mechanics to any player at any age. |
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15UBaseball
27 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2017 : 10:29:19
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Are we seeing the results of Mike Marshall now?
http://reviewingthebrew.com/2016/02/26/conversations-of-our-past-time-stories-of-baseball/
one such player that Marshall has applied his pitching philosophy with is Brent Honeywell Jr. Marshall taught Honeywell his pronation curveball (most of us call it a screwball), driving the ball through over the front foot. Before Marshall showed him, this technique Honeywell was throwing 83-85. After? Honeywell was throwing 97 MPH in his first year of rookie ball. |
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Could Short Arming actually protect a kids arm?
