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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2015 : 14:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
[quote]
As bballman stated, sitting a FEW innings per tournament... Not a "bunch"... What is a "bunch"? And there is a difference between sitting your RF or sitting your SS (who's your #1 pitcher and #3 catcher). SS needs to sit- maybe not as much as the RF, but still needs to sit. Carry more players, and a good coach, who's focused on DEVELOPMENT will rotate and alternate kids around. Maybe EVERY kid will sit a total of 3 innings over 5 games played, and you still have fresh, NOT OVER USED arms.
This whole situation at 9u might be some of the cause of arm issues. Think about it, if you have 12 kids on a team, 3 kids sit per inning. that means even if the coach is totally fair and sits each kid an equal amount of time that means that in a six inning game 18 player spots were sat. In 5 games that means 90 player spots were sat. 90 divided by 12 kids on the team means each kid sat 7.5 innings in the tournament....I know not all games go 6 innings, and most teams don't make it to game 5, but then again most coaches don't sit their short stop much either.
Frankly all the parents see is that little Johnny sat 3 innings that game and they paid the same 2K that little Timmy's parents paid and he barely sat one inning, if any. So, Johnny's parents leave and go to Coach XYZ's team because he only has 10 kids and their little Johnny will get to play....and poof! The talented kids are driven in droves to the coaches that have fewer kids and no one out there educates the parents that it is a bad idea...humm...might be part of the problem. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 15:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
...but anyone can play rec ball, including the 9 year old who has never picked up a glove in his life.
Rec ball isn't what my kid wanted anymore, he wanted more baseball with people who could catch and hit on a more consistent basis so he could play with and against better competition. But where is the middle league? I feel like rec ball was about second grade stuff, and travel ball is about 9th grade stuff...where is the middle? Whether the team is a Major team or a AA team...where is the middle where kids get to play baseball and not sit the bench but not throw too many pitches to hurt themselves.
This gets into a whole different discussion. My belief is that if ALL kids 11 & under played rec, it would be more competitive. Because you would have all those "travel kids" playing. Or even if you only had "major" teams playing travel, all those AAA, AA & A kids would be playing in the rec leagues. The problem is, every kid's parents think that their little Johnny is a Major player and should be playing travel. As long as that is the mindset, it is probably not going to change.
So, it comes down to the coaches manning up and carrying a bigger roster for the sake of the kids. If a coach can't deal with a malcontent parent, he shouldn't be a coach. It's part of the headache that comes with being a head coach. Besides, how many coaches have EVER run a team that did not have a single malcontent parent, regardless of roster size. My guess is not many. If some parent isn't complaining about play time, they are complaining about position or spot in the batting order.
Man up and increase your roster by 2 or 3 kids. Draw up a contract or information sheet in the beginning of the season and lay out your expectations and what your plan is. Let everyone know ahead of time that EVERYONE will sit EVERY tournament. Set the expectation, then follow through. Sit your SS. Sit your stud 1st baseman. Sit everyone. The younger ages are about development anyway. Let the parents know that ahead of time as well. Spell it out and you will have fewer problems. You will NEVER have NO problems, but you will have fewer problems. Coaches just have to do it. Let kids leave for greener grass. Pick up some more. Every team has turnover every year anyway. It's part of coaching a team.
I think you get my point... |
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MariettaDad
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 16:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My opinion is that 9u is WAY too early for teams to be playing travel (tournament) ball. Particularly any kind of extended tournament. I know I will get a lot of grief, but that's what I think. Yes, baseball is supposed to be fun. Tournaments are not set up for "fun" baseball. They are set up to win every weekend. If these kids were in a rec league, or even a travel league like the GGBL or what NWBA used to be, it would be much more conducive to being able to play with 10 kids and have fun. But if a coach is going to enter tournaments where 5+ games on a weekend are played, then they need to carry a bigger roster.
It's not a dilemma CaC03Girl. It's a choice. I am absolutely against a coach that chooses to put his young player's arms in jeopardy just so they all can say they play "travel ball". 7, 8, 9, 10 - even 11 is a too young to be playing such an extensive schedule with such small rosters.
Like I said, you have a choice. Play with more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments in which you are going to jeopardize the health of your players. It's that simple.
To be clear, I do agree with you bballman, I'm just putting myself in a coaches shoes, specifically a 9u-12u coaches shoes. There seems to be two choices in this area for that age group, you can play rec ball in the fall for 6 weeks and the Spring for 8 weeks, with a possible All-star group for summer. Or there is travel ball. I agree that travel ball looks like it was intended for 14u and up, but anyone can play rec ball, including the 9 year old who has never picked up a glove in his life.
Rec ball isn't what my kid wanted anymore, he wanted more baseball with people who could catch and hit on a more consistent basis so he could play with and against better competition. But where is the middle league? I feel like rec ball was about second grade stuff, and travel ball is about 9th grade stuff...where is the middle? Whether the team is a Major team or a AA team...where is the middle where kids get to play baseball and not sit the bench but not throw too many pitches to hurt themselves.
We are in the same boat regarding travel vs rec. My son dreads having to warming up with the kid who can't catch during the Fall and Spring Rec seasons. But come summer, he has no worries about gunning the ball to one of his fellow All Stars.
The other big issue is some of the Rec parents don't even know the game and are either complaining why their kids aren't playing IF or screaming the wrong instructions during the games.
We look at travel sports as a development process. It shouldn't be about the wins and losses. If our child is being challenged, learning, improving, and having fun, then we are happy. |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 21:11:48
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Completely agree with the larger roster size and protecting arms; these tournaments are awful for young arms. Most coaches would agree in concept, and most kids don't mind sitting a few defensive innings in a tourney.
HOWEVER, I think people are missing the primary reason coaches/parents don't want larger roster size...batting lineup. At 12u and below, if you carry 12 and bat all in lineup, given time limits, you may have kids get only 1AB in a game (rarely more than two). That is a development issue for each/every kid on team.
Like all things travel baseball, no easy solution... |
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teamgamark
163 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 23:14:29
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| I like the time off. No way our kids should be playing year round. Way too much. BTW 8-9 months of baseball is year round. Son played for coaches who were disappointed they played another sport. How insane is that? Some teams are playing travel basketball and travel baseball at the same time. Ludicrous what our society is doing to our boys, and their siblings. I am guilty myself, but how can we justify our kids being asked to play 4-6 baseball games and maybe a few basketball games in same weekend. We may kid ourselves the "kids enjoy it" but truly it is about the parent not the kid. Guarantee you 95% of the kids know no different and truth be told they would prefer we go back to 3 seasons and 3 sports. Football Aug-Nov, Basketball Nov-March, and Baseball March-July. We have done it to ourselves and allowed many to make a business off our children. Again guilty as charged. Yes I know we could and should pull away. |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 08:35:44
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I think all of you have lost your minds. Ten players is plenty on a roster through 12 years of age. Kids need to play at that age not sit on the bench. You all act like every team is playing 7 games every weekend. If you develop all your kids to be able to pitch a little you should have no problems with pitch limits. The problem isn't the tournament on the weekend....its the psycho coaches and parents that think a 8-12 year old needs to practice every day and take lessons every week. Save your money and put it in a college savings plan. Let the kids enjoy the tournaments - that's what is fun!
And better yet after summer let your kid play other sports in the fall and winter.
FYI-I'm also the dad who let his kid throw curveballs at a young age while all the big flame throwers were blowing out their arms! |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 08:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
Normally I agree with you but I have to chime in here.
First, let me say that I fully acknowledge that my team may not be competing at the level you are referring to when you suggest a larger roster. For us though, 11 players, and not a single player more, is where we want to be.
Our focus is development and safety and, if wins come along with it, fantastic. I have a GREAT group of parents that allow me the flexibility to bat all 11 players, rotate kids through the IF and OF, sit everyone, and pitch everyone over the course of a weekend without getting cranky when that philosophy costs us a game or three. Our decision has nothing to do with me or anyone on my staff being weak minded or trying to avoid confrontation, as you suggest, but has everything to do with our belief that kids grow when they get reps.
Thanks to their belief in us, we can carry 11 players and not burden our pitchers while also having the ability to not sit half a team. During the typical 2 pool play games which usually only covers 6 - 8 innings, our guys get their work in 1 inning at a time. They work on location, developing their secondary pitch, and getting the live reps they may not get in practice. The guys on Saturday typically only pitch an inning unless they are rolling and then we let them go until they get tired with the knowledge that they won't be pitching on Sunday. Our Sunday guys usually get to go 2 - 3 innings minimum unless they too get fatigued or are getting shelled. If we run out of guys on Sunday, we (rarely) go back to the guy from Saturday who had the least workload. We monitor pitch counts, talk to the kids each inning and watch for signs of fatigue but more often than not we have guys leftover at the end of a tournament who haven't pitched even though we make an effort to try and pitch everyone. Those guys who don't pitch one weekend start the next regardless.
We aren't perfect and we certainly screw things up. But, this has worked for us and I have seen my boys grow phenomenally over the past 1.5 years with no injuries to date. I think the spot where there's middle ground between your post and mine is based on philosophy.
The rub becomes whether the coach focuses on winning every game or if winning is something that is a byproduct of growth and development. You can have PLENTY of pitching each weekend if you work to develop it and know that those growing pains are going to cost you games today but might win you some tomorrow. But, the flip side is that those guys who pitch the same 3 guys week in and week out typically have the horses to play at a higher level of competition.
Neither is right or wrong but I did have to put my $.02 (heck, that post looks more like $1.50) re: roster size and player safety. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 10:11:46
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OPHornets, you make some good points, but here is part of what I said that you are not thinking about in your response:
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple.
Sounds like you are in the part 2 of my solution. |
Edited by - bballman on 05/15/2015 10:21:55 |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 10:42:20
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| bballman...10/11 kids is plenty to make it through a big tourney if you use the kids properly (we've been doing it for years with no arm issues even with them now moving through high school). |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 13:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by T13
bballman...10/11 kids is plenty to make it through a big tourney if you use the kids properly (we've been doing it for years with no arm issues even with them now moving through high school).
ok... |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 13:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by T13
bballman...10/11 kids is plenty to make it through a big tourney if you use the kids properly (we've been doing it for years with no arm issues even with them now moving through high school).
The math just doesn't add up T13...this thread is about the pitch smart guidelines...I posted this earlier:
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
If you are following the guidelines and ever make it into a game 5 you are just sunk. |
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kgenerals
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 14:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...
I'm confused. Why is there a 2 innings limit? Doesn't the pitchsmart guidelines say 75 pitches max per day and then the kid is done for the week? You can have pitchers pitching for 3 innings without approaching that limit (sometimes even 4 innings if they are cruising). You can also have a pitcher throw just 1, sometimes 2 innings, and they will still have a pitch count below 20 and be available for the next day and pitch 3 more innings. Also keep in mind that almost all pool play game, and most bracket play games are only 4 innings long, and only sometimes go to 5 innings bec of time limits. Only championship games go all the way to 6 innings. So you really have around 22 innings to 24 innings to cover. Eight pitchers can cover those 24 innings and still be well within the pitchsmart guidelines.
I do have a question regarding the guidelines: If it says 1 day of rest, is it one 24 hours period (meaning if he pitched Sat morning, he can pitch again Sunday afternoon), or does it mean he's burned up totally next day (i.e. next day he can pitch is Monday)?
To be honest, where we have more difficulty is with the catchers since all of our catchers pitches also and you are not supposed to catch in the same day you pitch. |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 15:59:20
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kgenerals is correct. If you work on your kids throwing strikes (and with umpires liberal strike zone), its not a problem....if you are wild take them out quickly and they can pitch Sunday. You can divide up one inning at a time or throw 4 kids on Saturday and the other 6 on Sunday. Heck I've had kids throw complete games on Saturday (then you only need 2) and that leaves you 8 kids for Sunday. I would rather have my kid throw 70 pitches in one day then 35 each day on Saturday and Sunday. And if kids are averaging over 15 pitches and inning they may not be pitchers :)
Good coaches have been handling pitch counts for years with 10/11 players. The issue at this age if playing the game not learning to sit on the bench (your kid can adjust to that in high school or go play another sport). It is absolutely CRAZY and STUPID for any kid not to bat or play the field in every game pre-puberty!!!
The bigger issue is developing more catchers (though Dr's will tell you it is better for the arm of a kid to go from Catcher to Pitcher in a game (although coaches will think opposite because they wont have legs) vs. pitcher to cathcher. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 18:25:58
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| @T13 - You're saying that you've coached for years and have never had an arm issue? Not even a sore arm during a tournament? |
Edited by - hshuler on 05/15/2015 22:27:31 |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2015 : 01:23:34
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| Not from anyone in previous years from what we were doing.... We've had a few show up with sore arms after lessons during the week or a dad having his son throw all week to get ready but not tell us.... But usually just soreness in the muscle. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2015 : 08:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by kgenerals
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...
I'm confused. Why is there a 2 innings limit? Doesn't the pitchsmart guidelines say 75 pitches max per day and then the kid is done for the week? You can have pitchers pitching for 3 innings without approaching that limit (sometimes even 4 innings if they are cruising). You can also have a pitcher throw just 1, sometimes 2 innings, and they will still have a pitch count below 20 and be available for the next day and pitch 3 more innings. Also keep in mind that almost all pool play game, and most bracket play games are only 4 innings long, and only sometimes go to 5 innings bec of time limits. Only championship games go all the way to 6 innings. So you really have around 22 innings to 24 innings to cover. Eight pitchers can cover those 24 innings and still be well within the pitchsmart guidelines.
I do have a question regarding the guidelines: If it says 1 day of rest, is it one 24 hours period (meaning if he pitched Sat morning, he can pitch again Sunday afternoon), or does it mean he's burned up totally next day (i.e. next day he can pitch is Monday)?
To be honest, where we have more difficulty is with the catchers since all of our catchers pitches also and you are not supposed to catch in the same day you pitch.
You neglected to read the second part of my post:
"What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?"
It is a VERY rare 9 year old that can handle being in for 75 pitches, and if we are going by pitch smart rules the kid is to be removed at the first sign of fatigue...so in short if you try to pitch a 9 year old for more than 2 innings I think that in itself is doing untold damage. Which all leads back to bballman's assertion that really 9u is not set up to compete in these types of tourneys.
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zwndad
170 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2015 : 17:57:21
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Sadly, the proliferation of travel ball tournaments is not going to decrease. However, as parents, we can control how much our kids play, and especially pitch. Depending on where you live (Gwinnett, Forsyth), you can find travel leagues that play only 2-3 games per week against decent competition. It's not as strong as AAA/Major tournaments, but at the younger levels, it's really not necessary - I don't care what you say.
If you go back several years, this website started out as the NW Ga Baseball league website and had several strong teams playing in their league. Over the past 5-8 years, those teams have migrated to tournament-only. IMO, tournament baseball below the high school age is really not necessary. But that's where the talent has gone, so we all chase the talent to have strong competition.
When my oldest son was 14, one of our GGBL rivals played GGBL games mid-week so they could play tournaments on the weekend, with only an 11-12 man roster. By the end of the season, they were running out of players because of injury. Again, IMO, you have to choose what/where you're going to play.
I've been a baseball dad/coach for over 15 years now and my youngest is now in high school. If I were going to do it all over again, I would probably always carry at least 12 players - even at age 10. Two would be catchers and the other 10 would be required to pitch. (You can either pitch or catch, but you can't do both.) If they weren't that good at pitching, we would teach them how. We would take our lumps, but hopefully the kids would get better in the process and stay healthier. |
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kgenerals
7 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2015 : 18:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
You neglected to read the second part of my post:
"What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?"
It is a VERY rare 9 year old that can handle being in for 75 pitches, and if we are going by pitch smart rules the kid is to be removed at the first sign of fatigue...so in short if you try to pitch a 9 year old for more than 2 innings I think that in itself is doing untold damage. Which all leads back to bballman's assertion that really 9u is not set up to compete in these types of tourneys.
I'm new to travel ball. I personally much prefer a rec league type of schedule where you have 1 game during the week and 1 more during weekend and 1 or 2 practice during the week, similar to what I'm hearing NWBA was originally meant to be.
What I'm confused about right now is what really is the pitching guideline. I thought Pitch Smart came out with the best guideline and Dr. Andrews is considered to have a conservative approach. Now you are telling me that his recommended max of 75 pitches is still very aggressive. Now I'm really confused as to what to follow and be able to tell a coach that they are doing too much. Our team is currently nowhere near approaching 75 pitches, but we are also definitely doing more than 2 innings a weekend. I thought we were well within the guideline. Per what you are saying, they really should only be doing 2 innings a weekend, which translates to 20 to 40 pitches a weekend. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kgenerals
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
You neglected to read the second part of my post:
"What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?"
It is a VERY rare 9 year old that can handle being in for 75 pitches, and if we are going by pitch smart rules the kid is to be removed at the first sign of fatigue...so in short if you try to pitch a 9 year old for more than 2 innings I think that in itself is doing untold damage. Which all leads back to bballman's assertion that really 9u is not set up to compete in these types of tourneys.
I'm new to travel ball. I personally much prefer a rec league type of schedule where you have 1 game during the week and 1 more during weekend and 1 or 2 practice during the week, similar to what I'm hearing NWBA was originally meant to be.
What I'm confused about right now is what really is the pitching guideline. I thought Pitch Smart came out with the best guideline and Dr. Andrews is considered to have a conservative approach. Now you are telling me that his recommended max of 75 pitches is still very aggressive. Now I'm really confused as to what to follow and be able to tell a coach that they are doing too much. Our team is currently nowhere near approaching 75 pitches, but we are also definitely doing more than 2 innings a weekend. I thought we were well within the guideline. Per what you are saying, they really should only be doing 2 innings a weekend, which translates to 20 to 40 pitches a weekend.
kgenerals you aren't alone in your confusion. If you ask 20 pitching instructors what is the "proper" way to pitch, or do off season training, or ramp up a pitcher for February you will get 20 different answers. No one knows for sure what is the right way to do it and that is because EVERY child is different.
I am sure there are 9 year olds out there that throw with such ease and grace it barely impacts their arm to throw 75 pitches. And I KNOW there are 9u kids out there who's arms are toast by 40 pitches...they start missing the zone, they start throwing wild, they can't seem to hit anywhere close to their spots and the passed balls are mounting up....little kids just don't have the muscles built to deal with throwing that many pitches.
There is some new technology that allows a pitcher to wear an arm band that measures the amount of stress on an elbow, but it is still in testing and VERY expensive, however, the initial results are pretty clear, every elbow and every kid is different.
If your kid is at 35 pitches and starts to look crazy on the mound and even a visit by the coach doesn't help I would hope the coach would pull him. Conversely, if your kid is approaching 75 pitches but still looks strong, I would hope the coach would pull him.
If your local rec league you described is enough for your child STAY AS LONG AS YOU CAN! My son is about to be in 8th grade, we could no longer stay in rec as of 9u because he was the main pitcher, the main catcher, the main shortstop, the 4th batter...in short he was the golden child and THAT isn't good for a developing player either...plus it just wasn't fair to the other kids who wanted to learn those spots too.
Youth baseball (below high school) is about learning...that kid that has played SS for 2 years, try him in the outfield...that kid who is the best catcher, let him see how he likes 1st base...it's about trying different things to see not only what you are good at, but what you like, that was the intention of youth baseball, not to specialize at 9u, not to have Pitcher Only kids at 9u...it was suppose to be about learning while having fun....it has turned into a job for some, and doesn't that just suck! |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:40:34
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| I am just a born contrarian. This issue with the guy who makes a ton of money off of Tommy John surgeries (Dr James Andrews) being in the forefront of this issue on pitch counts and his concern does not pass my smell test. It reminds me of the dozen GA Power commercials during a braves game about how they want you to conserve energy so you have a lower bill? Pitch counts are far from new and judging by the number of TJ surgeries that have been increasing for years, I reject pitch counts as the end all be all of pitching guide lines. How about let's not put radar guns on 12yr old's? The kids of course are going to throw with max effort on each pitch when that is done. And for those in the know, that is not pitching. Pitch counts to me are a lazy way to put each kid in the same box in the name of "safety". Does our team keep up with pitch counts, of course we do. But if we have a kid dealing on Sunday in the 5th inning at 68 pitches (12u) nobody is thinking of taking him out. Any travel team worth a crap has at least 6 good pitchers. Most teams average about 4 games on a weekend (if you average more than that you probably have at least 8 pitchers) 5 innings per game on the average we are now at 20 innings. That is an average of 3.5 inning per kid. Yet on this chain we have people wanting to change formats and avoid certain tournaments? Pitch counts are like zero tolerance policies, they take critical thinking out of the mix. I know I am fighting a losing battle. Hard to defeat the safety first crowd. That is why kids have to wear helmets on their bikes and their backpacks now have wheels. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kgenerals
What I'm confused about right now is what really is the pitching guideline. I thought Pitch Smart came out with the best guideline and Dr. Andrews is considered to have a conservative approach. Now you are telling me that his recommended max of 75 pitches is still very aggressive. Now I'm really confused as to what to follow and be able to tell a coach that they are doing too much. Our team is currently nowhere near approaching 75 pitches, but we are also definitely doing more than 2 innings a weekend. I thought we were well within the guideline. Per what you are saying, they really should only be doing 2 innings a weekend, which translates to 20 to 40 pitches a weekend.
Here are the guidelines:
AGE DAILY MAX (PITCHES) REQUIRED REST (PITCHES)
0 Days 1 Days 2 Days 3 Days 4 Days
9-10 75 1-20 21-35 36-50 51-65 66+
11-12 85 1-20 21-35 36-50 51-65 66+
There is no mention of innings pitched. I think what CaCOGirl3 is saying is that although the max recommended is 75, if a kid is struggling before that, a coach needs to make the move and take him out. Not every kid can throw 75 pitches in a game. Sometimes the same kid can go 75 one week and the next week, for some reason, may get tired at 40 pitches and need to come out. The guidelines are good as a max limit generally. However, there is still a level of common sense and evaluation a coach must do to determine what is good for that pitcher at that particular time.
Here's an example. When my son was 17 and getting recruited for college, he pitched in a WWBA game. A coach that was recruiting him came to watch him pitch. It was pre-arranged. My son had gone 90-100 pitches on numerous occasions in the past and was pretty comfortable with it. However, on this day, it was around 98 degrees out and very humid. He pitched 4 innings and around 60 pitches and told the coach he was done. Just too hot and tired to go more. The recommended pitch limit for that age group is 105, but that didn't mean he HAD to throw 105 pitches. He knew he was done and let the coach know.
For younger kids, more than likely, the coach needs to make that determination. If it's hot and the kid is sweating profusely, or he just looks really tired, or has lost velocity, make the call and pull the kid. You don't have to wait until he is getting hit either. In the above case, my son hadn't given up any runs, he just knew he was done. As a coach, you have to make that call.
I REALLY think the days rest is just as, if not more important. Follow the days rest guidelines and you will be doing your pitchers a huge favor.
And just to let you know since you are new to this. The tournament organizations use an inning limitation in their tournaments with no consideration for pitch count or for days rest. While making sure you don't go over the inning limits and wind up forfeiting a game, hold yourself to a higher standard than what the tournaments require you to. Pay attention to and follow the guidelines that PitchSmart has put out. It will help the kids in the long run. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 12:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I REALLY think the days rest is just as, if not more important. Follow the days rest guidelines and you will be doing your pitchers a huge favor.
I have a friend who pitched in college and the minors once tell me, it's MORE stressful on the arm to pitch consecutive days, then continue in one game... We (9U) have a 50 pitch limit for kids, and try desperately to not pitch kids on consecutive days. Are we forfeiting wins? Maybe. But my friend's comment really hit home with me, and made sense. Getting up, warming up, stressing the arm consecutively could potentially damage the arm more than pushing the max pitch count in 1 day. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 12:55:08
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The idea that pitch counts have been around for a while, and don't work is not really accurate. They are NOT implemented in any organization other than Little League and I think USA baseball as of this point in time. Little League just a few years - USA baseball less than that. You cannot say pitch counts - and the PitchSmart guidelines - do not work when they have not been implemented and adhered to by anyone for a significant enough period of time to judge that. Little League really only goes to 12u and then the pitchers fall under the travel limitations of innings. Even during the Little League season, players play on travel teams which use the innings limitations. USA baseball is a non factor at this point in my opinion.
Several of the responses on here is the reason why these guidelines need to be implemented in every level of youth baseball - including HS. The foremost experts in the field are saying the PitchSmart guidelines are the best thing to be doing for the young baseball players today - and still people just take this with a grain of salt and dismiss it. There are many people trying to educate parents and coaches about the results of research on thousands and thousands of youth pitchers, yet for some, it does no good.
mikepayne, do you think hospitals that treat cancer patients are trying to skew results of cancer studies so that they can continue to get business to treat cancer patients? I REALLY don't think so. Why would it be any different for Dr. Andrews? He is close to retirement anyway. I don't think he needs the money to the point he wants to perpetuate TJ surgeries.
Of course, the exact number of pitches recommended do not fit EVERY pitcher. Some may be able to go more and MANY will not be able to reach that limit without doing damage. However, it is the best thing available. Not every coach can make a determination based on the fatigue of the pitchers, so some standard has to be put in place.
I am really tired of parents and coaches thinking "My kid is different. This really doesn't apply to him." That is why we are in this boat in the first place. People get caught up in the game. People think their kid is different. Adhere to the guidelines and your kid will be better off in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by T13
Not from anyone in previous years from what we were doing.... We've had a few show up with sore arms after lessons during the week or a dad having his son throw all week to get ready but not tell us.... But usually just soreness in the muscle.
No one has addressed this post, so I figured I would. Pitching injuries do not only happen on the field while you are playing. They are cumulative, over time. They are the result of ALL throwing and pitching. Whether that be on the field while the kid is playing for you or during bullpens or doing long toss or while pitching for another team, etc... T13, sounds like you have a plan and best of luck to you. But, you do not know what the future holds. What the kids do on the field is just a portion of their total workload. Decreasing the workload on your kids is what will allow them to progress as far as their talent will let them. Playing with a roster of 10 in today's tournaments is asking for trouble. All you need are 2 kids that are off that day and your whole plan is in shambles and you are stuck overusing someone or pitching someone else well beyond when they are fatigued because you have no one else to put in. Not every kid is going to be able to go the 3 or 4 or 5 innings you have planned for them every time in order for you to get thru the tournament with the limited amount of players that you have.
I'll bring this up as well. After a kid pitches, he should be resting. Not going back out onto the field. So, you have one kid out of the game. If you have to bring in a relief pitcher, he needs to warm up before he goes in, right? Problem is, with 10 kids, you can't have a pitcher resting and a pitcher warming up at the same time, because that only leaves you 8 players on the field. If you want to do it right and have the kid's health first and foremost, it is impossible to do with a 10 player roster.
I think I've said enough on this subject. I'll bow out and let others debate the merits of keeping kids healthy. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 14:50:46
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To steal from Reagan a little bit -This is the issue of this pitch count business: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon what we see in front of us and confess that the intellectual elite can plan our pitching rotation for us better than we can plan them ourselves. That they "care" more for our players than we do.
No thanks. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 16:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepayne
To steal from Reagan a little bit -This is the issue of this pitch count business: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon what we see in front of us and confess that the intellectual elite can plan our pitching rotation for us better than we can plan them ourselves. That they "care" more for our players than we do.
No thanks.
I appreciate the Reagan quote. I am a big believer in self-governance. For myself and you and for any adult, that is fine. However, we are talking about the health of minors. And to this point, we as adults, have not done a very good job of it, evidenced by the increase in the number of TJ and shoulder surgeries. I don't think we are taking away any constitutional liberties by making sure our young ball players are not abused by ignorant adults whose care we put them under.
Until the explosion of travel ball - particularly at the younger ages - we did not have to worry about this because the amount of time spent on the field was minuscule compared to what they do today. With the expansion of travel baseball - moving to year round, tournaments almost every weekend, starting at 7 or 8 or 9, times have changed. And so must our response to just letting things happen.
If you want to trust a coach to leave your son in as long as he wants, with no regard to your child's future, that's up to you. Keep in mind, there are already limitations in place taking away the power of self-regulating coaches. It is called inning limitations on pitchers. EVERY organization has them. The problem is, they are pretty much useless. Pitch counts, while not perfect, are much more specific than inning limits. So, we are really just talking about replacing one restriction with another.
By the way, mikepayne, no Thomas Payne quotes you could have used? Would have been more apropos.  |
Edited by - bballman on 05/19/2015 17:13:34 |
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Pitching Guidelines
