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LittleDawg
91 Posts |
 Posted - 06/29/2015 : 10:30:53
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What is it with the love affair between coaches at 11U/12U vs. kids who throw strikes? Specifically talking 10U-13U. I know velocity really changes at 14U +
I understand the desire to blow it by kids but the reality is that at these ages, Kids can hit a fastball. Yet week after week, the coaches do the same thing by starting the kid who throws the hardest and they deem, "the ace" rather than the kids who can mix it up and throw strikes.
Boys of all ages struggle against off-speed / junk and this year was no different. Our most productive pitchers were the smaller kids who had teams completely off balance. So why don't more team try to balance the rotation with guys like this rather than have a team of hard throwing pitchers?
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 11:58:17
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The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
At 11/12u the advantage of using a kid who throws accurately, but not very hard, is that if a batter really gets a hold of the pitch it won't go out of the 200 foot park because it didn't come into the batters box at a speed in which it would allow a HR hit. Also, the heavy hitters are impatient at 11/12u and won't wait for that curve to drop or that change up going all of 40 mph to even reach the plate...then you see kids lunging and diving for balls rather than using their controlled swings.
The disadvantage of using a slow but accurate pitcher at 11/12u is when you meet that team that has been trained to be patient, to wait for the ball, and then you have given them a silver platter feast to put the ball wherever they want to.
The advantage of the hard thrown ball at 11/12u is that the 50 foot distance, with a ball going 70+mph is hard for kids to get their bats around quick enough to actually hit it. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 13:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 14:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up.
This debate is ongoing as well, these do seem to be cropping up today. While I agree a side arm throwing curve would not be good at 12 the over the head curve that looks like a fastball but is really just a snapping of the wrist on the release (to my knowledge) has not been linked to anything bad with arm development or injury. And judging from the D2 Triple Crown tourney this weekend that pitch is VERY prevalent at 12. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 16:11:48
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If a kid throws hard, then you can probably teach them better mechanics, breaking balls etc.
You cant teach a kid to throw 90mph or they would all throw that hard. |
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 16:59:08
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| Yeah...about that curveball at 11-12U, good luck with that UCL later. It's a shame coaches and parents let it happen that early. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 17:17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up.
This debate is ongoing as well, these do seem to be cropping up today. While I agree a side arm throwing curve would not be good at 12 the over the head curve that looks like a fastball but is really just a snapping of the wrist on the release (to my knowledge) has not been linked to anything bad with arm development or injury. And judging from the D2 Triple Crown tourney this weekend that pitch is VERY prevalent at 12.
A fake curve ball is not a curve ball..same as an attempt to throw a curve ball that does not curve...then it's batting practice. |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2015 : 17:19:19
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Location, location, location...
Yes, kids can hit fastballs, and they also crush less hard throwers that miss over the plate & up. Hard throwers typically can vary speeds more (need 5-7 mph off at this age), and if they locate, they are often the most effective. Hard throwers often get away with more mistakes.
Maybe softer throwers are "encouraged" (out of survival) to locate more effectively; maybe, we fail to properly emphasize location to our harder throwers.
It has always, for 100 years, been about location. |
Edited by - RoamingCF on 06/29/2015 17:36:37 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 08:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up.
This debate is ongoing as well, these do seem to be cropping up today. While I agree a side arm throwing curve would not be good at 12 the over the head curve that looks like a fastball but is really just a snapping of the wrist on the release (to my knowledge) has not been linked to anything bad with arm development or injury. And judging from the D2 Triple Crown tourney this weekend that pitch is VERY prevalent at 12.
A fake curve ball is not a curve ball..same as an attempt to throw a curve ball that does not curve...then it's batting practice.
I've asked in a few threads what actually constitutes a "curve ball" no one really had a good answer. My definition is the pitch my son throws that appears to be going straight for the batters head, causing them to duck or jump out of the batters box, only to curve and drop at the last second right into the catchers glove waiting in the strike zone. It's not a 12-6 curve, but it's a decent 2-8.
I've also asked when it's "okay" for a pitcher to throw a curve, the responses I got were also varied. They ranged from when he can shave, to 14 years old, to when his mechanics are decent enough that he won't hurt himself. Well, my son just started throwing the curve this year and while he is 12 he is 5'7 and shaves, and has thrown 90+ pitches in a game without shoulder or elbow pain so I can only ASSUME his mechanics aren't too far off. Maybe I'll come back on here in 5 years and revive this thread to say y'all were right, but for now what else am I suppose to do? He didn't learn this pitch himself, it was taught to him by knowledgeable baseball coaches. I'm not suppose to interfere when they put Timmy at Short Stop, or bat Johnny 8th when I think he should be 4th...if my kid isn't hurting why is it okay to open my mouth about this? |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 10:25:04
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[/quote]
I've asked in a few threads what actually constitutes a "curve ball" no one really had a good answer. My definition is the pitch my son throws that appears to be going straight for the batters head, causing them to duck or jump out of the batters box, only to curve and drop at the last second right into the catchers glove waiting in the strike zone. It's not a 12-6 curve, but it's a decent 2-8.
[/quote]
I doubt that there is any 12 year old that can throw this pitch regularly on command...and definitely not for a strike on command which means most curve balls attemepted will simply be a ball and a good batter will simply take the pitch. Not to meintion that it will be an easy stolen base for any decent runner on base....
Until you can throw a fastball on command for a strike and back it up with a change up on command in the strike zone there is no need to attempt to throw a curve ball in my opinion. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 10:43:12
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<<<only to curve and drop at the last second right into the catchers glove waiting in the strike zone. >>>
You mean that pitch that never is over the plate or down in the strike zone until the catcher catches it? Yet is called a strike by a clueless ump who doesn't comprehend the strike zone is over the plate and not at the catchers mitt?
At 14U that pitch is also followed up by words like "wow that ball must have went 400 feet!"
Curves that float and stay waist high go bye.
Right now the pitch being thrown that you describe is a changeup with some spin. And the majority of the curve is just gravity. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 11:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
At 14U that pitch is also followed up by words like "wow that ball must have went 400 feet!"
Curves that float and stay waist high go bye.
Right now the pitch being thrown that you describe is a changeup with some spin. And the majority of the curve is just gravity.
"Wow that ball must have went 400 feet"....LOL, now that was funny!
Thanks Renegade44, I needed that! Well it's effective at 12u let's see how well it does at 14u next year 
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 12:25:46
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I would say a curve ball is any pitch that curves. Not to be sarcastic, but a pitch is pretty much defined by it's movement. Obviously, you have your changeup as a pitch and there is the splitter, or sinker and then your 2 seam and 4 seam fastball. But then you have your "breaking pitches". The curve, slider and cutter. These pitches are all pretty much thrown the same, just to different degrees. Generally speaking, curves will be slower with more break. Sliders will be harder with less, but later break. Cutters will have even less break, but with more lateral movement. Part of what determines the type of break (ie, 12-6 vs. 2-8) will be arm slot. An "over the top" pitcher will throw the 12-6 curve. A 3/4 pitcher will have more of the 2-8 break. A 3/4 will never be able to throw the 12-6 curve. The physics just aren't there, unless he changes his arm slot just for that pitch.
My son throws a CB as well as a slider (just starting to get better at this one). The big, slow 2-8 CB he throws mostly as a called strike pitch in an 0-0 or 1-0 count. It's a pitch he throws to get a called strike early in the count. Most batters will not be swinging at this pitch with less than 2 strikes. They are looking for a fast ball. The slider he will throw any count or with 2 strikes to try to induce a ground ball. When his change is working good, that's his strike out pitch.
And it doesn't really matter what pitch you throw, if you make a mistake and leave it hanging or over the plate, belt high, it's going 400 feet most of the time. Doesn't matter if it's a hanging 2-8, a hanging 12-6, a hanging slider or change or even a hard fast ball down the middle of the plate belt high. These pitches are going to get hit. The trick is executing them consistently, putting them where you want and using them in the right situations.
Look at Mike Foltynewicz for the Braves. Starter throwing 95-98. Got shelled for the Braves because his FB didn't move and his command wasn't good. Left too many pitches over the plate. Even at the AAA level now, he's getting hit and hit a lot. Velocity helps, but movement of all pitches and command in the strike zone are king. |
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LittleDawg
91 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 12:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
If a kid throws hard, then you can probably teach them better mechanics, breaking balls etc.
You cant teach a kid to throw 90mph or they would all throw that hard.
Best Answer and I Agree in theory unfortunately, haven't seen it in happen too often. Also have seen smaller, weak-armed kids develop over time. Long-toss and puberty help  |
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HeyBlue
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2015 : 16:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up.
This debate is ongoing as well, these do seem to be cropping up today. While I agree a side arm throwing curve would not be good at 12 the over the head curve that looks like a fastball but is really just a snapping of the wrist on the release (to my knowledge) has not been linked to anything bad with arm development or injury. And judging from the D2 Triple Crown tourney this weekend that pitch is VERY prevalent at 12.
Snapping of the wrist at 12 is a VERY BAD idea. If I could toss the pitcher and the coach for a curve ball at 12 I would. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2015 : 08:59:04
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quote:
Originally posted by HeyBlue
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The goal would be to have a team of hard throwing pitchers that can throw strikes with fastballs, curves, and change ups with the ability to keep the batter guessing
Curve balls at 12? No bueno....
I would say the goal at this age should be to be able to locate a fastball and have a change up to back it up.
This debate is ongoing as well, these do seem to be cropping up today. While I agree a side arm throwing curve would not be good at 12 the over the head curve that looks like a fastball but is really just a snapping of the wrist on the release (to my knowledge) has not been linked to anything bad with arm development or injury. And judging from the D2 Triple Crown tourney this weekend that pitch is VERY prevalent at 12.
Snapping of the wrist at 12 is a VERY BAD idea. If I could toss the pitcher and the coach for a curve ball at 12 I would.
But WHY is it a bad idea? Some people say it's a bad idea, some people say people thought it was a bad idea but when that theory was tested Dr. Andrews couldn't find that it put any more stress on the elbow. Then some say it isn't actually a curve, others say snapping of the wrist is bad, others say the over the top throwing action is fine for young kids.
What is your theory HeyBlue? And why are there so many differing opinions on the subject? |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2015 : 19:12:52
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At Disney this summer, I remember mentioning to one of the winning teams coach that that pitch I just saw was "Nasty"..I thought it was a change standing by 1st base. The coach with the scoring book in hand just smiled and said it was a knuckle ball....Our Pitching coach taught All of our pitchers the Knuckle ball....I just smiled and said WOW! I remember having a Nasty Knuckle ball at 12yo.
My son has a Nasty curve/slider(whats the difference?) that too will start right at the batters head then fall right in the strike zone, when he does not over throw it;or right over the plate and end up in the left handers box.
As far as future issues, I am more concerned with his hand, and elbow positions and actions......
To the OP's question, I say throw strikes 1st, then mix it upwith junk/change then throw hard. At this age, kids will WALK all day if you let them; you HAVE TO THROW STRIKES. The change seemed to be the toughest pitch for our kids to hit. The straight change seems to be the toughest pitch for my kid to learn |
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Throw hard or throw strikes
