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lefty33
5 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2009 : 10:44:05
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Batter is in the box with 2 strikes 2 balls,runner on second, batter runs to first on 2nd strike because catcher drops ball. Catcher throws the ball to first thinking if the batter is going to run I'll throw it on to first. Runner on second advances to score winning run in a tie game and batter isn't called out and is sent back to finish his at bat. Umpires never calls time allowing runner to advance home while first baseman is holding the ball. By the way, umpire claims he doesn't know what to call it but lets run count??
For those of you out there that know, what is the ruling on this? If it is a "trick play" as tournament director called it I think EVERYBODY should do it because batter will NEVER be called out on first and runner can andvance to score according to SYSA/USSSA director. |
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rock44melnix
110 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 11:01:54
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| It's not the umpires job to keep the defense informed that there are only 2 strikes and to not throw the ball. It's the job of the players and coaches to know what the count is and what the situation is. The umpire should not have called time the play was still live from what your OP is describing. This sounds more like a shame on the defense and coaches than to lay blame on the umpires - to easy to target them as scapegoats here. |
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Sox
55 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 11:18:30
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| Cathcher should know the count before the pitch!!!! |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 11:19:46
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Sounds like the defense needs to pay attention to the count. Kind of like having a runner on 1B and 2B, dropped 3rd strike and the runners take off and the batter takes off running to 1B. The defense needs to know 1b was occupied and the catcher needs to throw the ball to 3B to get the runner stealing, not to 1b, to get the batter, who is not allowed to run (unless there are 2 outs).
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toprank
138 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 11:20:08
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| This is similar but a trip play I have been holding out on posting. We actually ran a play like this in high school. Bases loaded close game, coach would give the signal with 2 balls, every player on base saw it next pitch ball 3, batter throws down the bat like ball 4, and all the runners take off just like ball 4. The runner on 3rd scored, umpire makes the batter come back to the plate but the run counts and all base runners are credited with a stolen base. Very similar situation. We actually won a game with this. Why did the runner on 2nd score though in your situation? Why didnt the first baseman throw back home? |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:00:21
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| I think most would call it a trick play, but the batter in the box has to return to the batters box. The runner on second would be like stealing third and comming home on a bad pitch..The runner can advance on his own and take the risk just like stealing...Thats just my 2 cents. |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:08:43
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Rules 8.06.E.1 - 8.06.E.8 Comment: If the batter intentionally leaves the batter’s box and delays
play, and none of the exceptions listed above applies, the umpire shall award a strike without the
pitcher having to deliver the pitch. The ball shall remain alive. The umpire shall award additional
strikes, without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch, if the batter remains outside the batter’s box
and further delays play.
This is from the USSSA rules, and is part of the High School rules. I have seen, once, and only once, an Umpire ring up a player for a similar scenario. Usually umpires call time and invite the wayward youth back to the batters box. |
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who
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:53:37
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Lefty,
The runner can't advance, or at least successfully advance, if the catcher throws to third instead of first. To that end, the runner can't further advance (successfully) if the 1st baseman doesn't hold the ball but throws back to the catcher. There were recent lengthy discussions on the board related to trick plays, etc., and if I remember correctly, some version of this was discussed and many opinions were offered. I hope your coaches used this as a learning opportunity for the infield players to increase their baseball awareness. My guess is that the batting team also yelled, "RUN, RUN, RUN !!!" to further confuse the players. I'm not defending the batting team for using this to win, just pointing out that I hope that your kids in the field grew from this. It was quite bold to try as if this trick failed, the winning run could have been tagged out at third. |
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WPBulls Coach
99 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:53:42
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According to a number of veteran umpires on other "Ask the Ump" boards this play is legal and they have seen it. The ump can't call time out unless asked or ball is out of play. The way to stop this play is to teach catcher not to fall for this trick. They should be taught when to throw on dropped THIRD strike and only on dropped THIRD strike.
Watch out for another trick play I saw last year at 13U. Must have strong armed catcher and short backstop. Baserunner on second, pitcher intentionally throws ball 10-12 ft. high on backstop. Catcher is moving on release and has the ball before BR is halfway to 3B and throws him out easily. |
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southpawmom
19 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:58:17
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| So was the batter's count prior to the pitch when the catcher dropped the ball 2 balls, 2 strikes or 2 balls, 1 strike? |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:16:15
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I believe in the following rule they are refering to if the batter will not get in the box and hit. If the catcher throws to 1B play is not delayed, Maybe the batter really thought it was the 3rd strike, you can't penalize him for that, now if the catcher faked a throw to first then threw to 3B,he would have the runner dead at 3B.
Rules 8.06.E.1 - 8.06.E.8 Comment: If the batter intentionally leaves the batter’s box and delays
play, and none of the exceptions listed above applies, the umpire shall award a strike without the
pitcher having to deliver the pitch. The ball shall remain alive. The umpire shall award additional
strikes, without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch, if the batter remains outside the batter’s box
and further delays play.
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lefty33
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:36:40
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Thanks to all for your help. We are talking about 11 year olds. So you don't see much of this out there. Our coaches try to win fairly without having to resort to this kind of baseball.
The 1st baseman held onto the ball because the coaches came out of the dugout questioning the call. The defense was definately confused which is what the offense wanted I assume.
Sorry, I wasn't clear on the count. The pitch thrown was the 2nd strike and the batter took off running.
You guys are so knowledgable! In all my years of keeping a scorebook I haven't seen anything quiet like it. I didn't even know how to mark it. The umpire(who happened to be the tourn.directors brother) told me it was considered a stolen base...... |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:59:21
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Lefty..
last year the ROME Rattlers used a play something like this..Bases Loaded, runner on first takes off...Coaches yell back, back, back, and our catcher throws to first only to have the runners all advance bases and getting a run across the plate..i don't know if you guys played with them last year but this type of thing happenes.. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 17:09:39
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| Watching travel ball for 6 years now, i can count on one hand how many umps know the rules |
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doublebogey
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 10:17:33
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| CMorton, What game are you talking about last year? I was one of the coaches of the Rattlers last year, and I can assure you we neither practiced nor executed any trick play, and certainly not one that would require 3 good baserunners. I wish we were that good or that quick. (We were much more concerned with teaching our kids to learn how to hit the 12-6 curve balls we keep seeing despite noone permitting.) I do remember, at least twice, including once this year, our runner on first taking off with the bases loaded because the pitcher went to the windup and the kid had a mental lapse. Let me ask you what you would yell to the player when you saw that happening. I can't think of anything except "Back, back, back"). That your team, or the team you watched, had kids who failed to execute on defense just as our runner failed to be alert on the basepaths really just demonstrates why trick plays may not be a bad thing afterall. They do serve to remind the kids to be aware of the count, aware of the outs, and aware of the situation before every pitch. Unfortunately at 11U that is a lot to expect. |
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southpawmom
19 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 11:46:22
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| Lefty - it's not a stolen base because the defense did not try to throw the baserunner out. It is an E2. |
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ronicard
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 12:06:24
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| If your fielders (and catcher) are alert, you can indeed throw out the lead runner. An easy fix for this, if you're the umpire, is to loudly yell out "That's only 2 strikes, not 3" as the runner takes off. He should NOT call time, but him letting everyone know how many strikes (or balls in the case of the mentioned fake walk with 2 balls) will discourage future trick plays such as these two. (Which, by the way, I think are bush league myself." |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 12:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by southpawmom
Lefty - it's not a stolen base because the defense did not try to throw the baserunner out. It is an E2.
Logic seems flawed on this statement. So if a runner steals 3B and the defense does not try to throw them out that's an error? No it's a stolen base. |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 12:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by doublebogey
CMorton, What game are you talking about last year? I was one of the coaches of the Rattlers last year, and I can assure you we neither practiced nor executed any trick play, and certainly not one that would require 3 good baserunners. I wish we were that good or that quick. (We were much more concerned with teaching our kids to learn how to hit the 12-6 curve balls we keep seeing despite noone permitting.) I do remember, at least twice, including once this year, our runner on first taking off with the bases loaded because the pitcher went to the windup and the kid had a mental lapse. Let me ask you what you would yell to the player when you saw that happening. I can't think of anything except "Back, back, back"). That your team, or the team you watched, had kids who failed to
execute on defense just as our runner failed to be alert on the basepaths really just demonstrates why trick plays may not be a bad thing afterall. They do serve to remind the kids to be aware of the count, aware of the outs, and aware of the situation before every pitch. Unfortunately at 11U that is a lot to expect.
It was a USTBA tournament last year where we ended up losing 13-1 anyway so it really didn't matter, but for the rest of the year we had runners have that had the same problem when our bases were loaded.. You guys had a different coach on third last year than who you guys have this year...It was a good learning experiance because I was the one yelling throw it to first...LOL... |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 13:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by southpawmom
Lefty - it's not a stolen base because the defense did not try to throw the baserunner out. It is an E2.
Now I saw Carl Crawford of the Tampa Bay Rays steal a base and t he catcher never threw the ball, I didn't think the ball had to be thrown for it to be a stolen base.. |
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tn3sport
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:03:37
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The post is titled "Trick play or interference".
It neither. The ump made the correct call. Which is no-call.
Runner scores and batter goes back to the box to finish his at bat.
I know the situation was frustrating but this was a defensive letdown, not planned deception from an AA ball team. Not trying to be offensive, but I saw the following: wild pitch from pitcher, E2 throwing to first with only 2 strikes and no one on first, E3 on throw to F5, E5 on throw home to F2.
Smart base-running by R2 is where credit is due. His aggressive, yet quick thinking is what put the point up and won the game.
FWIW, I have no bias in either team, but did witness the play at Heritage last weekend while waiting on another game to start. Ump got it right. Also, got it right when he tossed the coach. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 15:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by C. MORTON
quote:
Originally posted by southpawmom
Lefty - it's not a stolen base because the defense did not try to throw the baserunner out. It is an E2.
Now I saw Carl Crawford of the Tampa Bay Rays steal a base and t he catcher never threw the ball, I didn't think the ball had to be thrown for it to be a stolen base..
It doesn't. Hence the term that base was stolen on the pitcher. |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 16:18:03
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Hurricane,
It is an error because, if you re-read the original post, the catcher threw the ball to 1b. If he had held it, it would have been defensive indifference, which would NOT have been an error. Because the catcher DID throw it to 1B, it was an E2.
I think we are all getting confused of which scenario we are talking about (dropped 3rd strike, when it is just the 2nd strike, vs ball 4 when it is actually ball 3). |
Edited by - Dr. Old School on 05/21/2009 17:27:19 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 17:58:21
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If the catcher threw the ball to the 1st baseman and the 1st baseman caught it, it is not an error. It was a mental mistake and mental mistakes cannot be considered errors. In order for there to be an error, the ball has to be misplayed by a player. In this case, there was no misplay, just a mental mistake.
And you are right Doc. A base can be taken without a throw and not be a stolen base. If the defense chooses not to make a play on a runner, it is considered defensive indifference. You see this all the time in the majors. Usually with two out in the 9th and a man on 1st. The defense will let him have the base without a play. No throw, not a stolen base. |
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Trick play or interference
