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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2016 : 09:52:07
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I saw a lot of 13u teams get demolished this weekend in a 14u D2 tourney. Since this is the time of year when people start asking themselves 13u or 14u...54x80 or 60x90...what should my kid play, I thought I would start the ball rolling.
In my OPINION 54x80 and a drop 5 bat is pointless, but my kid is a giant so my opinions may be skewed. But seriously, buy a drop 5 bat you can only use for one year...play on a field dimension that you can only play for one year....who came up with this?
Unless your kid is teeny tiny what is the point of 13u played on a 54x80 field? |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 11:12:26
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I get where you are coming from, but 11/12u the field is 50 X 70 and there are plenty of kids still using drop 10 bats (at least at 11u). The jump right to 60 X 90 is a big deal. I think the intermediate step is good along with the mandate of using a drop 5 bat. Now, my kid isn't teeny tiny (and uses a -8), but 10 feet for pitching in one year would be killer. I guess if you really have shown an aptitude for pitching had have a strong arm you may be better prepared, but that would still be a big jump.
My son is on bat number 4 in not even one full season. The days of a bat lasting a year plus have seemed to vanish for my kid. |
Edited by - ABC_Baseball on 05/23/2016 12:56:00 |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 11:38:55
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It's a good bridge year for those who aren't as developed. Lots of arm problems at 12-13 and 60/90 doesn't help.
Also, 54/80 is a faster game than 60/90 at 13U. A 60/90 game between kids who aren't ready is not fun to watch. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 11:45:13
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| Have already decided to go from 12U to 14U. Two reasons for this are: (1)It will prepare my son for the high school field since he would be in the 8th grade at that time. (2) It allows him to play with his classmates who have earlier birthdays than him. Bottomline, I agree with everything you stated above! |
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743
215 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 12:25:36
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I'll bite. I think most kids going from 12U fields Cooperstown being most of them's last tournament at 50/46 (200 to 225 foot fences) to 60/90 is a huge jump. From home plate to 2B for a catcher is roughly 85 feet on the 60 foot bases...
113 on the 85 feet bases and 127 feet on the 60/90. That is what 42 feet further to throw from 3B to 1B from Home plate to 2B? And you are talking a foot and 6 inches more in pitching. I think by the end of the 13U season you see kids starting to adjust to the big diamond but I believe its a safety issue for arms. I think just like all the sizes of the fields they are perfect for the age. (except Little League WS I think that is a joke those fields should be bigger and they should lead off) It makes the game more realistic stealing bases, fielding ground balls etc. Now what I don't get is the drop 5 bats. They should make them drop 5 but make them with the same material as the BBCOR bats. If your son is a Giant he might could skip 13U and play up with 14U and you could go straight to BBCOR, that is how a lot of 13U kids would feel going from 12 to 13 on the big diamond. How long does it take your son to run from home to 1st? If he is big and can run he is an attractive player, big kids that can't run when the field gets to 60/90 are a liability because they clog the bases especially with the BBCOR and Wood bats.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 12:32:20
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| Shhh!! Someone may expose the charade. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 12:53:27
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I dunno..........but am about to find out Isn't it supposed to be a "Transition" spec? |
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SoxIn7
42 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 13:52:11
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| drop 5s are the easiest to buy used at a good price....just saying. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 14:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by 743
I'll bite. I think most kids going from 12U fields Cooperstown being most of them's last tournament at 50/46 (200 to 225 foot fences) to 60/90 is a huge jump. From home plate to 2B for a catcher is roughly 85 feet on the 60 foot bases...
113 on the 85 feet bases and 127 feet on the 60/90. That is what 42 feet further to throw from 3B to 1B from Home plate to 2B? And you are talking a foot and 6 inches more in pitching. I think by the end of the 13U season you see kids starting to adjust to the big diamond but I believe its a safety issue for arms. I think just like all the sizes of the fields they are perfect for the age. (except Little League WS I think that is a joke those fields should be bigger and they should lead off) It makes the game more realistic stealing bases, fielding ground balls etc. Now what I don't get is the drop 5 bats. They should make them drop 5 but make them with the same material as the BBCOR bats. If your son is a Giant he might could skip 13U and play up with 14U and you could go straight to BBCOR, that is how a lot of 13U kids would feel going from 12 to 13 on the big diamond. How long does it take your son to run from home to 1st? If he is big and can run he is an attractive player, big kids that can't run when the field gets to 60/90 are a liability because they clog the bases especially with the BBCOR and Wood bats.
I know of some 11U and 12U coaches who practice on high school fields. They don't even move the bases in for infield practice. The outfielders get used to covering more ground tracking flyballs. Their thought is if the kid can make throws on those fields, then their regular 11U/12U field will be a piece of cake. Also, it allows for kids to be prepared to make the jump from 12U to 14U. They do, however, move the pitcher mound to the proper distance. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 14:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
It's a good bridge year for those who aren't as developed. Lots of arm problems at 12-13 and 60/90 doesn't help.
Also, 54/80 is a faster game than 60/90 at 13U. A 60/90 game between kids who aren't ready is not fun to watch.
Hshuler, you are super knowledgeable, way more than me on most things baseball but I don't get your logic here. Does middle school play 54x80 or 60x90? Drop 5 or drop 3 bat?
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 15:07:27
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I've played both 54/80 & 60/90 with 13U. I personally like the 54/80 as a bridge to the 60/90 and the -5 transition from -10 to -3. There's nothing wrong with a transition year and jumping to 60/90 at 13 doesn't speed up a player's development process or net a better outcome. When they're 15, everyone is where they're gonna be anyway. I see it as two equal paths that lead to the same place.
There are certainly many kids who can make the jump straight to 60/90 & -3 with little to no issues. But, there are many who are better served with a transition year. We have an upper AAA/lower Major level team and a couple of our guys have yet to start puberty. They get physically swallowed up on the bigger field and BBCOR bat. I find the games more exciting at 54/80 and since a wider range of kids can compete and perform well, I think it's good for the overall health of the sport. There is nothing wrong with having an avenue for more kids to keep playing baseball and giving kids who are already undergoing a lot of physical and mental changes a year to adjust. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2016 : 16:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
It's a good bridge year for those who aren't as developed. Lots of arm problems at 12-13 and 60/90 doesn't help.
Also, 54/80 is a faster game than 60/90 at 13U. A 60/90 game between kids who aren't ready is not fun to watch.
Hshuler, you are super knowledgeable, way more than me on most things baseball but I don't get your logic here. Does middle school play 54x80 or 60x90? Drop 5 or drop 3 bat?
First, let me say that I am glad that Gwinnett County doesn't not have middle school ball. I have yet to hear anyone say anything positive about it...and I am not exaggerating.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think GA middle schools use high school rules. 6th graders definitely don't need to be playing 60/90 or using drop threes. I think there were more arm injuries at 12U because of this.
My logic is simply there is reasonable progression - 40 to 46, 46 to 50, 50 to 54 seems more reasonable than 50 - 60. I just saw a lot of kids who were not ready for 60/90 or the -3 @ 13U. I am sure that some may feel differently but I would strongly recommend the bridge year if asked my opinion. |
Edited by - hshuler on 05/23/2016 19:37:38 |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 00:18:29
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I am hoping to have my son do the transition specs next year at 13u. Maybe throw in a 60/90 tourney or two in there somewhere for fun
Sorry B, I dont think it's pointless........Perhaps they should start them there at 12u instead of 13? Do it for two years? The more I look at it, the boys "Change" a LOT, at 12 or 13(typically) and do so in 1 Year. So maybe it is the right way to do it; one year only. I like progression and I dont find these steps to be too minute.
Certainly some kids will make the transition much easier than others, but many kids actually need something like this IMHO. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 07:58:20
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hshuler and sebaseball, you both bring up the point that some kids were not ready at 13u for the big field and the 54x80 was the better option for transitioning. What about the idea that if you are still a 4'8 85# 13 year old you play AA or AAA instead of Majors?
I really dislike it when I hear of a 7th grader who is playing 50x70/drop 10 on his 12u team then plays for his middle school team at 60x90/drop 3, then in 13u he plays 54x80/drop 5.....aren't all these field jumps causing the arm confusion? |
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HeyBlue
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 10:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
It's a good bridge year for those who aren't as developed. Lots of arm problems at 12-13 and 60/90 doesn't help.
Also, 54/80 is a faster game than 60/90 at 13U. A 60/90 game between kids who aren't ready is not fun to watch.
Hshuler, you are super knowledgeable, way more than me on most things baseball but I don't get your logic here. Does middle school play 54x80 or 60x90? Drop 5 or drop 3 bat?
Middle school plays on a 60/90 and has drop 3 bat. |
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HeyBlue
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 10:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
It's a good bridge year for those who aren't as developed. Lots of arm problems at 12-13 and 60/90 doesn't help.
Also, 54/80 is a faster game than 60/90 at 13U. A 60/90 game between kids who aren't ready is not fun to watch.
Hshuler, you are super knowledgeable, way more than me on most things baseball but I don't get your logic here. Does middle school play 54x80 or 60x90? Drop 5 or drop 3 bat?
First, let me say that I am glad that Gwinnett County doesn't not have middle school ball. I have yet to hear anyone say anything positive about it...and I am not exaggerating.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think GA middle schools use high school rules. 6th graders definitely don't need to be playing 60/90 or using drop threes. I think there were more arm injuries at 12U because of this.
My logic is simply there is reasonable progression - 40 to 46, 46 to 50, 50 to 54 seems more reasonable than 50 - 60. I just saw a lot of kids who were not ready for 60/90 or the -3 @ 13U. I am sure that some may feel differently but I would strongly recommend the bridge year if asked my opinion.
6th graders aren't typically playing middle school ball. Where I am from, it is rare that 6th graders can play on any of the sports teams for the school. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 10:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
hshuler and sebaseball, you both bring up the point that some kids were not ready at 13u for the big field and the 54x80 was the better option for transitioning. What about the idea that if you are still a 4'8 85# 13 year old you play AA or AAA instead of Majors?
I really dislike it when I hear of a 7th grader who is playing 50x70/drop 10 on his 12u team then plays for his middle school team at 60x90/drop 3, then in 13u he plays 54x80/drop 5.....aren't all these field jumps causing the arm confusion?
Agreed - which is why some states don't allow kids to play anything else while playing middle school ball. I'm not sure what their reasoning is but -3 bats are only good for ruining swings if kids aren't ready for them.
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743
215 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 11:59:43
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I am curious CaCO3Girl is your son's birthday in or around May can he play down?
I think when they moved the travel baseball age it caused a good bit of problems. I think it should parallel the age for grade levels so unless you are held back you play with your classmates during baseball season. |
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kc123
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 14:06:31
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| I agree with hshuler. My kid went straight to 60/90. He's sitting on the bench and going to physical therapy for an elbow injury. I think it was a combination of the jump to to the big field and middle school ball. His middle school team was bad and he went from an occasional 2innings here and there to the middle school starter. The coach didn't over pitch him but his little arm couldn't take it. So I think it depends on the kid like caco3girl said. A big strong kid that's deep into puberty is fine but a smaller boy just starting to hit his growth spurt with vulnerable growth plates may not be. No right answer because teams are usually built with kids of all stages of development at 13u. |
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3sondad
220 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 14:35:00
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For League sanction games, 6th graders in my son's middle school league were able to use "legal" -9 and -10. 7th and 8th graders had to swing BBCOR drop 3. All on 60' 90' fields. We played some non-sanction games on 54' 90' fields and it was scary watching 6'+ 14 year olds swing non-bbcor bats with the pitcher only 54'away. Some of the better (bigger) teams we played were non-sanctioned games. One of the coaches from this other team told our coach he didn't think his 6th graders could handle the bigger field. Well he sure as heck didn't play any 6th graders against us. Switching back and forth that season did not make since to me and wish we would have stayed at 60' 90'. Plus there was a rule no metal cleats. Crazy what they come up with in these leagues.
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2016 : 15:10:31
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Tempest in a teapot. Not a huge difference in fields, transition year, and most 13U teams are going to be playing tournaments on the big fields anyway (as mentioned in original post about this).
Good reasons on both sides of argument (to go 13U or skip) but those reasons definitely don't include avoiding the cost of a -5. That's nothing.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2016 : 09:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by 743
I am curious CaCO3Girl is your son's birthday in or around May can he play down?
I think when they moved the travel baseball age it caused a good bit of problems. I think it should parallel the age for grade levels so unless you are held back you play with your classmates during baseball season.
Since you asked, my son plays 14u but is 13u eligible due to an August b-day. As previously stated though he is a giant and my view on this is skewed. If you were born 5/1-9/1 you could be in 8th grade and be 13u eligible....the problem is some states don't start school until September, their cut off date being in October, so for them 5/1-10/1, now you are into 5 months out of the year not playing with their grade...I don't know how anyone would fix this.
Maybe the rules for 12-14 don't need to be by year but by size...no idea how THAT would possibly work but that does seem to be the issue. The little kids can't throw on the 60x90 without hurting themselves, and the BIG kids shouldn't be on the 50x70 for the safety of the other kids.
Maybe the |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2016 : 11:40:38
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In our area, most all of the middle schools have baseball teams. The smaller sized schools usually only have one team that is made up of 7th & 8th graders. If they have any 6th graders, they are either stud players or are just on the team & ride the pine. The bigger schools or those with quality baseball programs tend to have two teams. The MS my son attends has a 6th/7th grade team that swings -5 & plays at 54/80. They also have an 8th/7th grade team swinging -3 & playing at 60/90. The 7th graders are placed on one of the two teams based on their talent and where they are developmentally. Some stay down another year to continue growing while others are ready to move up. This system has worked well for us, but we are in a small, rural area with one HS for the whole county. I can see how in larger, metro areas where not cutting MS players and having them continue playing travel will keep the numbers up so that when you do get to the point of cutting kids for school teams, you have more to choose from.
Our Varsity HC has told me that the GHSA wants nothing to do with MS sports and thus, has no rules or involvement with it. They take a hands-off approach with the exception to how MS players interact at the HS level (playing on Freshman or JV teams, etc). Middle schools are free to do what they want and, down here, schools create their own individual conferences. These are set up based on location to keep the travel down and in our conference, we have teams from AA - 5A. The bigger systems usually have two teams, so the talent gets split up and everyone is competitive. Like most anything else, there's more than one way to skin a cat and MS baseball has it's pluses and minuses. I believe the overall arching message to this thread is that you have to go with what works best in your particular situation and that there is no one size fits all solution that is the "right" way. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2016 : 17:16:35
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Just as a note, I don't think size always has a bearing. When my son was a freshman in HS, he was about 5'7" or 5'8" and about 145 lbs. Threw around 82-84 and pitched for the varsity in 6A which was the highest classification. When I counted at the time, he pitched against 25 guys that either went D1 or got drafted that year alone. Pitched a complete game against South Forsyth and a complete game against Pope. Beat South Forsyth 7-5 and lost to Pope 5-2. Those two teams played against each other for the 6A State Championship that year. Something like 9 out of the past 10 State Champions came from Region 6 when my son was pitching in that region, so it was not an easy road. But, he was a small kid.
There isn't one correct way to do things. Do what you think is best for your son and ignore people trying to tell you otherwise. If your son will be over-matched on the 60-90 field, let him have a gap period to work up to it. If you think he can handle it, let him play 60-90. It has nothing to do with ego, but with helping your kid have fun and be successful. And every case is individual - regardless of size... |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2016 : 21:14:32
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I think the 54/80 field is a waste of time, though I can see some validity in transferring to a -5 on your way to a -3. I think kids should handle the bat that allows them to practice/play without hindering mechanics or inducing injury. -10, -8.5, -5, -3 is the path my son took and it worked out well for him.
We skipped the 54/80, mightve played a few games but not many. The main thing is being mentally tough and preparing your kid to understand that he may appear to take a step back because the field has gotten bigger, but to just stay at it. Working hard and persevering is an integral part of baseball(and life) and its good to start learning this lesson now. We practiced on the bigger field and the players learned to adapt very quickly.
And the argument of birthdate is a moot point... theres always going to be someone born a day after the "cut off" date whether it be may 1st, August 1st, December 19th or June 4th. As you get older it evens out as you will see talent edge out age as the determining factor in a baseball players perceived skill level. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2016 : 07:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
I think the 54/80 field is a waste of time, though I can see some validity in transferring to a -5 on your way to a -3. I think kids should handle the bat that allows them to practice/play without hindering mechanics or inducing injury. -10, -8.5, -5, -3 is the path my son took and it worked out well for him.
We skipped the 54/80, mightve played a few games but not many. The main thing is being mentally tough and preparing your kid to understand that he may appear to take a step back because the field has gotten bigger, but to just stay at it. Working hard and persevering is an integral part of baseball(and life) and its good to start learning this lesson now. We practiced on the bigger field and the players learned to adapt very quickly.
And the argument of birthdate is a moot point... theres always going to be someone born a day after the "cut off" date whether it be may 1st, August 1st, December 19th or June 4th. As you get older it evens out as you will see talent edge out age as the determining factor in a baseball players perceived skill level.
It amazes me how many different paths people can take and still arrive at high school baseball. In case anyone hadn't put it together my son went from 50x70 field swinging a drop 10 to a 60x90 field swinging a drop 3. Pitching was the biggest struggle, lots more room so lots more motion to think about controlling. The bat worked itself out in just a couple of weeks and while it has worked out for him as well,I wouldn't recommend that path for a small kid. |
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What is the point of the 54x80 field?
