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BaseKnock
29 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2016 : 15:14:12
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| What is a good time for a catcher to throw to third? Pop times to second are commonly discussed but I haven't found much in the way of what a HS varsity catcher should do and what is typical of catchers who play after HS. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2016 : 07:48:43
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It isn't a timed statistic, likely due to too many variables.
The pop time to second is fairly consistent. Catcher gets the ball and throws attempting to stop the runner from first from advancing. The variables in the throw from home to third are too numerous. Are you trying to get the runner from second out, or get the guy already on third, this matters because if the runner is advancing from third there is a base path issue the catcher has to avoid. Is the batter in the way, does the catcher have to drop back to make the throw, or is it a lefty in the batters box?
All of these variables, and more, make it unlikely to get a repeatable statistic, and if the statistic isn't repeatable it is useless.
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2016 : 08:56:25
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| Pop times to 3rd are not discussed because a runner that is correctly controlled at 2B should not be able to steal 3rd on a HS catcher. |
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BaseKnock
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2016 : 12:01:09
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| Appreciate the input. Reason I asked was my son, a catcher, went to a D1 showcase recently and they timed him on that in addition to his Pop to second. Not the first time he's been measured to third so obviously the college coaches have an interest in this. A baseball knowledgeable friend tells me the times are usually .1 to .15 seconds faster than to second and it gives a coach a little more insight to a catchers footwork. Thanks. |
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2016 : 13:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
It isn't a timed statistic, likely due to too many variables.
The pop time to second is fairly consistent. Catcher gets the ball and throws attempting to stop the runner from first from advancing. The variables in the throw from home to third are too numerous. Are you trying to get the runner from second out, or get the guy already on third, this matters because if the runner is advancing from third there is a base path issue the catcher has to avoid. Is the batter in the way, does the catcher have to drop back to make the throw, or is it a lefty in the batters box?
All of these variables, and more, make it unlikely to get a repeatable statistic, and if the statistic isn't repeatable it is useless.
Every variable that you listed exist with a throw down to second. It's not measured simple because in big boy baseball stealing third is rare.
I wish scouts would start recording and publishing pitcher times to home from the stretch. That would actually give you a clue if the pitcher was worth a dime with runners on. Pop times are useless if the pitcher is throwing 1.6's to the plate. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2016 : 07:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
It isn't a timed statistic, likely due to too many variables.
The pop time to second is fairly consistent. Catcher gets the ball and throws attempting to stop the runner from first from advancing. The variables in the throw from home to third are too numerous. Are you trying to get the runner from second out, or get the guy already on third, this matters because if the runner is advancing from third there is a base path issue the catcher has to avoid. Is the batter in the way, does the catcher have to drop back to make the throw, or is it a lefty in the batters box?
All of these variables, and more, make it unlikely to get a repeatable statistic, and if the statistic isn't repeatable it is useless.
Every variable that you listed exist with a throw down to second. It's not measured simple because in big boy baseball stealing third is rare.
I wish scouts would start recording and publishing pitcher times to home from the stretch. That would actually give you a clue if the pitcher was worth a dime with runners on. Pop times are useless if the pitcher is throwing 1.6's to the plate.
While I agree with you that the pitcher plays a HUGE role in how effective the catcher's throw down can be I have to disagree that the same variables are involved in the throw to second as the throw to third. |
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2016 : 12:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by TRB
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
It isn't a timed statistic, likely due to too many variables.
The pop time to second is fairly consistent. Catcher gets the ball and throws attempting to stop the runner from first from advancing. The variables in the throw from home to third are too numerous. Are you trying to get the runner from second out, or get the guy already on third, this matters because if the runner is advancing from third there is a base path issue the catcher has to avoid. Is the batter in the way, does the catcher have to drop back to make the throw, or is it a lefty in the batters box?
All of these variables, and more, make it unlikely to get a repeatable statistic, and if the statistic isn't repeatable it is useless.
Every variable that you listed exist with a throw down to second. It's not measured simple because in big boy baseball stealing third is rare.
I wish scouts would start recording and publishing pitcher times to home from the stretch. That would actually give you a clue if the pitcher was worth a dime with runners on. Pop times are useless if the pitcher is throwing 1.6's to the plate.
While I agree with you that the pitcher plays a HUGE role in how effective the catcher's throw down can be I have to disagree that the same variables are involved in the throw to second as the throw to third.
Really don't know what you can disagree with. It's a fact the same variables exist. You mention throwing behind a runner at third as a variable. That's really not relevant on a pop time to a base. Pop times are used to calculate if you can throw a stealing runner out. That is why pitcher times to the plate are measured. You combine the two and figure if it beats the average runners speed.
On a throw to second, literally the same variables exist on trying to throw a runner stealing out. I'll even name a few for you. Right handed batter in the batters box, does he dive into the pitch? Is it an inside pitch making it more important to replace step and throw. Who's covering, second or SS? Is it a breaking pitch? Is the pitch low, inside or outside? The only mechanical difference in throwing to third is the footwork and you don't have to flip your hips. It's literally all the same. I played it for years, in HS and college. Every variable you named exist with a runner stealing second. With the the exception, throwing behind a runner, which again, is irrelevant.
It not being measured has nothing to do with the variables and everything to do with the fact that there is no need for it. Third base is stolen on the pitcher every single time in big boy baseball. If a pitcher is doing his job, its a moot point. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2016 : 15:31:17
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Batter in RH batters box, catcher receives the ball and turns BOOM that batter is directly in the way of the throw unless the catcher takes a step. That is not even close to catcher receives the ball in his secondary and throws.
Here is an article explaining how the batter is an issue:
http://www.baseball-catcher.com/guide/throwing-thirdbase.htm
Here is an article explaining the footwork a catcher needs to do in order to throw to third:
http://bb_catchers.tripod.com/catchers/skills_throw3.htm
Here is an article explaining that if a batter gets in the way that's catchers interference:
https://www.umpirebible.com/blog/?p=460
If you google "Molina throwing a runner out at third" a whole lot of youtube examples come up showing runners being out at third in big boy baseball.
Sorry...kind of bored at work today. |
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2016 : 16:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Batter in RH batters box, catcher receives the ball and turns BOOM that batter is directly in the way of the throw unless the catcher takes a step. That is not even close to catcher receives the ball in his secondary and throws.
Here is an article explaining how the batter is an issue:
http://www.baseball-catcher.com/guide/throwing-thirdbase.htm
Here is an article explaining the footwork a catcher needs to do in order to throw to third:
http://bb_catchers.tripod.com/catchers/skills_throw3.htm
Here is an article explaining that if a batter gets in the way that's catchers interference:
https://www.umpirebible.com/blog/?p=460
If you google "Molina throwing a runner out at third" a whole lot of youtube examples come up showing runners being out at third in big boy baseball.
Sorry...kind of bored at work today.
Your not arguing the same original point here. I am not disputing the foot work is different. There is also different footwork on throws to second depending on the pitch and location. A batter can just as easily "be in the way" on a throw to second. The batter is still a variable on a throw to second. The footwork is obviously different. That doesn't make it harder nor does it add an extra "variable" to the equation when timing a throw. On a throw to second for instance, if you're set up outside and the pitcher misses inside you have to jab step receive the ball, transfer and throw. Typically most catchers use the replace method to second. But, there is also rock and throw. So arguing ways to do it or the mechanics of how you do it is a different argument entirely. Throwing to third does not offer any more challenges then throwing to second. Your original point was that there are too many variables. My point to you is, no there is not. A batter is an issue rather throwing to second or third. Cross stepping to gain depth so you can throw to third takes very little athletic ability.
As far as Molina throwing a "whole lot of people" out at third, well yeah, over a 10 year career there will obviously be some teams stupid enough to try to steal on him. As a whole, not near as many attempts are made to steal third and the point stands that third is always stolen on the pitcher. So again, to the original argument, there are not SO MANY more variables in throwing to third. Mechanically there may be a few but physical variables, nope, they're just not there. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2016 : 07:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Batter in RH batters box, catcher receives the ball and turns BOOM that batter is directly in the way of the throw unless the catcher takes a step. That is not even close to catcher receives the ball in his secondary and throws.
Here is an article explaining how the batter is an issue:
http://www.baseball-catcher.com/guide/throwing-thirdbase.htm
Here is an article explaining the footwork a catcher needs to do in order to throw to third:
http://bb_catchers.tripod.com/catchers/skills_throw3.htm
Here is an article explaining that if a batter gets in the way that's catchers interference:
https://www.umpirebible.com/blog/?p=460
If you google "Molina throwing a runner out at third" a whole lot of youtube examples come up showing runners being out at third in big boy baseball.
Sorry...kind of bored at work today.
Your not arguing the same original point here. I am not disputing the foot work is different. There is also different footwork on throws to second depending on the pitch and location. A batter can just as easily "be in the way" on a throw to second. The batter is still a variable on a throw to second. The footwork is obviously different. That doesn't make it harder nor does it add an extra "variable" to the equation when timing a throw. On a throw to second for instance, if you're set up outside and the pitcher misses inside you have to jab step receive the ball, transfer and throw. Typically most catchers use the replace method to second. But, there is also rock and throw. So arguing ways to do it or the mechanics of how you do it is a different argument entirely. Throwing to third does not offer any more challenges then throwing to second. Your original point was that there are too many variables. My point to you is, no there is not. A batter is an issue rather throwing to second or third. Cross stepping to gain depth so you can throw to third takes very little athletic ability.
As far as Molina throwing a "whole lot of people" out at third, well yeah, over a 10 year career there will obviously be some teams stupid enough to try to steal on him. As a whole, not near as many attempts are made to steal third and the point stands that third is always stolen on the pitcher. So again, to the original argument, there are not SO MANY more variables in throwing to third. Mechanically there may be a few but physical variables, nope, they're just not there.
Guess this is one of those agree to disagree situations. |
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contact
45 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2016 : 11:01:05
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| My son went to a showcase a few weeks ago and they also threw to second and third . I timed my son and the rest of the catchers, here's what I got: Throws to second, 1.83 to 2.38 , throws to third , 1.51 to 1.91, keep in mind that a coach was throwing to the boys with a kid standing in the right hand batters box. And would say there were around 15 catchers at this event, guessing at age from freshmen and older, I know anything under a 2.0 to second for a H.S. catcher is good , but not sure about what is a good time for third is. |
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Catcher Throw to Third Time
