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Keepingitreal

97 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2014 :  18:42:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At the end of the day the best players in the state are not representing Ga. Not even close.
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MCrush

5 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2014 :  21:56:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Little League wants the best Little Leaguers representing the state. Unfortunately for kids who are true Little Leaguers, kids who have played LL as their primary outlet of baseball, that is no longer possible in many states, including Georgia.

When ABC/ESPN made the LLWS big time is when many Little Leagues started bending (and knowingly breaking) the rules to get their kids to the Big Show.

Yes, the Peachtree City kids honed their skills on the travel ball cuircut for many years. Yes, Peachtree City formed a league to sort of create a team of these ultra-talented kids to face off with the heavyweights in the state.

Is what the league create in making their All-Star team against LL rules? No. Does it sort of spit in the face of all the kids who have played primarily Little League since they were little with the hopes of winning state and having a shot at greater things? In a way, yes.

But, LL approved their team for district and for state and the boys won the games on the field and deserve to represent Georgia.

And while my heart goes out to the Peachtree City boys, I still feel that no one in this mess (this year and over time) that Peachtree City, Columbus-Northern and, certainly, Warner Robins has created is innocent.

The boys of course are innocent bystanders. But unfortunately it's their parents/coaches/administrators that they inevitably must follow into the mess that those folks have created.

With all that said, Little League should be ashamed of their decision to disqualify Peachtree City.

Edited by - MCrush on 08/03/2014 22:21:33
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PCMudcats

65 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  07:54:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More Juicy gossip gone unnoticed and without consequence from the SE Director:

South Nashville played with an illegal player in District tournament. The player, parent & coaches were all involved. The kid resided outside the boundary and apparently parents and coaches came up with an address inside the boundary. They were caught, the kid kicked off team but were allowed to move on. Subsequently they won state and now are in the SE tournament.
Guess who is allowing this team to play in SE tournament. You have it....the SE Director who disqualified us for having the incorrect regular season paperwork technicalities!
Now this is a team who actually tried to cheat to win! I just love the politics involved in Little League! The RBI folks can chime in and provide more detail.
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MCrush

5 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  09:44:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PCMudcats,

I feel for you and the fine Peachtree City kids.

This is what happens when grown ups get in the way of a kids game. They screw it up. South Nashville should have been shown the door. That seems much more egregious than what y'all did.

Then again there is a bigger picture that many people are missing. Little League's model has been tainted.

Little League is not a place for uber travel ball teams to rock and roll around the state and country since they were a collection of six year olds winning Dizzy Dean states and other big destination tournaments...only to then enter Little League as a team of 12 year olds trying for yet another state/regional/national title and get their mugs on ESPN.

Little League is for the kids who start playing and continue playing with their friends at the local park from the time they are four and five years old. Then, when they become twelve, and in their final year at a park where they've played eight, nine years, have a shot at some glory. It's what the spirit of Litle League should be about.

Not some Home Plate Baseball or RBI Rangers outfit to all of a sudden show up to the dance when the cameras show up.

So, yes, it sucks, totally sucks what happened to the Peachtree City kids. My heart genuinely aches for them.

But my heart also goes out to all the real Little League kids who build up their skills primarily through their Little League parks, only to be trampled by one-and-doners that we've seen in Georgia, Tennessee and South Carolina to name a few.

It's called manipulating the system...and Little League must take a hard look at how teams are doing such. Not easy since a lot of LL kids play some sort of travel ball.



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Mad1

220 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  10:45:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
MCrush, it's not just the southeast you are talking about. All those teams on TV come from travel ball. The announcers even relay that fact on the air. While watching TV they were talking about a group from the Midwest that have been together for 5 yrs on travel teams and how well they knew each other and what they will do on each play. Peachtree City did nothing different than every other team, they played their league games and all kids were from region. Their only fault is they whooped both the perrineal favorites of the region, who couldn't beat them on the field, so they did it through politics.

Little League advertises it's there for all kids to have an avenue to play ball in their organization and are continually trying to build participation. The fact is that the 12year olds talent today has passed Little Leagues antiquated rules of small fields, Short pitching distance and base paths. 12 year olds use travel ball to feed talent growth that is being hampered by playing their rules, and they can't take it when it's shoved in their faces that there is a better way out there and it's not theirs. If little league wants to seperate the pack, then they need to promote the intermediate level (50/70) the same way they do Williamsport, and the travel teams will go that direction. They created the monster and can't handle it properly, IMO. What they did to PTC will not promote their organization in this area, only hurt it with their politics that are in the Ga Region.
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Renegade44

23 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  10:52:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's right because everybody deserves a trophy. No matter how hard they work or how skilled they are or how much effort is put into a talent.

Sarcasm by the way. But that is what it has come to. Participation trophies and feel good tournaments for ALL! Everybody is a winner, no one can excel, we ruled that out long ago.

Just whatever at this point.

If Little League wants to be for the everyday kid who wants to casually play ball at a recreational skill level then so be it. Write it into the rules and change the definitions to exclude any rostered travel ball player. Otherwise quit arbitrarily dancing around the issue and trying to puff themselves up as the end all be all for baseball.

PTC got robbed in somebody else's agenda of political trickery. A total witch hunt. Can't beat them on the field so lets do it thru paperwork.

Typical, "I'm entitled, you're not" attitude displayed by many in todays society in regards to the powers that be.
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baldy87

91 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  12:09:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Like a lot of folks commenting on here - just reading what happened just makes me sick to my stomach for Peachtree City. I'm so sorry that happened to you guys the WAY that it happened to you guys and WHEN it happened to you guys (a day or so before the beginning of the regionals????), and for the life me, I can't see how disqualification was allowed to happen.

Reading what transpired - it looks like Peachtree City submitted all of their paperwork, which was reviewed and approved at one point by this Southeastern Director. Only after they won was there a reqest, from Warner Robbins, to go back and review Peachtree City's paperwork again. On the SECOND review, it was determined that there were some problems. My question would be - what was the point of the first review if anyone can request ANOTHER review somewhere down the road? And specifically WHO reviewed it the second time? If anyone from Warner Robbins was involved in the second review, well, that just absolutely reeks of corruption. Seems the original approval is absolutely worthless, so why even have it as part of the process?
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rippit

516 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  13:52:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Super teams being formed all in the name of beefing up a recruiting resume to be used 4-5 years later...daddies and their dreams.
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PCMudcats

65 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  14:21:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rippit...nice post little man...kids that live in a defined region....some super team
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mikepayne

43 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  14:35:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
rippit,

After reading what has happened to this team, for you to chalk this up as "daddies and their dreams" misses the point. Are you trying to stir the pot? The clue phone is ringing please pick it up.
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Hobnailboot

126 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  15:32:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like LL Reps were upset that some of their pitchers were held
accountable on 200' fields. Travel ball is so much better and honestly antiquated rules and listening to Brent and Orel marvel at a 12 year old throwing 70 makes LL's style boring and hard to watch. How many bloops, bombs and watching kids slide down a muddy $&@ hill after it rains can you take? Same every year and oh by the way, my pick this year to win it all is Japan! Bet the mortgage baby! SSP...y'all deserved better.
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22202

254 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  15:55:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So there is no appeal process to this at all? It would "seem" that an organization as large as LL and the experience of running the process for years something like this would have been caught much earlier if it was indeed illegal to the point of disqualification before the final hour.

Sorry this happened to you guys, I was looking forward to seeing you guys play.

What is the requirements for the kids location to be on a roster?

Edited by - 22202 on 08/04/2014 17:39:03
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rippit

516 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  16:00:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey mudcat and Payne: I was actually referring to a statement made about wrall living and dying by the whole ll thing but if you want to think I was talking about you then I must have struck a guilty nerve. Peace out.
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Renegade44

23 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  16:57:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Again I hate it for the PTC boys.

Think about this situation as a coach and parent? Would you jump at taking PTC's place at the last second if you were soundly beaten on the field? Under each circumstance: (My Answer)

a.) Illegal Player, Out of boundary player, Some in game violation related to the game outcome? (Yes)

b.) Trumped up fine print error in 6 month old paperwork? (NO)

And better yet what self respecting organization or coach would? Especially after being beaten in a tournament. Is there no shame or sense of doing right by others?

There is my perspective on it all. Like it or not.

What would I tell the family's when they raged at me over at No decision? You didn't earn it, so it's not right to go. Even if it is the pinnacle of Little League greatness.
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Bob Balker

290 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  22:40:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I was bored and had to look it up just to confirm the vast disparity in level of play in the LLWS compared to the everyday Travel Ball we have seen over the last 5 years. The team now representing GA from Columbus called the Northern All Stars has 13 players on their Gamechanger from today's 3-2 win over WVa. After reviewing UTrip history, 7 of them played w/the Young Guns out of Columbus, a couple other played for a team called "Rock It" and one played for the Redd Stixx. My only point is to show the absolute ocean wide disparity in the 2 levels. Because as we all know we never see any of these teams at any of the tourneys throughout the year, although occasionally they come over to Metro Atlanta and have less than stellar results. I promise this is my last post on this topic as I am bored by it. If I post again on it I promise I will go away for a year.
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MCrush

5 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  22:50:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you Renegade. Good post.

As for travel ball vs Little League, there really is no comparison. But again, that's not the point.

I want you to ask yourselves this...

If Little League is below your son and his travel team, then why even bother playing in LL and 46/60 at 12 years old? From the parents and kids who have left our local park from the time they were nine, all you ever heard was the same gibberish that you hear across these boards. That of, "Little League is not competitive enough for my son" and so forth. Well if it's below your son when he's 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, why then would they come back or play for the very first time as 12s? If the answer, and only answer is to get on TV, then you are all in the wrong.

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22202

254 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  23:20:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can someone list the roster of the GA team/teams that has advanced?

Edited by - 22202 on 08/05/2014 08:31:24
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PCMudcats

65 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2014 :  23:55:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
McRush, from our perspective we were Little Leaguers a few years removed. This is our community and the boys wanted to represent and play as a community team. It is a once in a lifetime opportunity. The lure of ESPN is definitely a plus, but the overwhelming factor is to the journey and the memories created. There are no trophies, just a shot at holding up a banner. The community embraces it like Texas & High School Football.
The reason my son left, is due to his early skill level maturation. Little League in larger metro areas have diluted talented pools from 8 yrs on due to travel ball. Where as LLs like WR maintain there talent pool and strength as they are geographically challenged for most families to play travel ball.
Channel 46 just broadcast the debacle on the 11:00 News.
The team we beat twice easily is 2-0 in Region play....pathetic....PTC needs to become professional cheaters and teach bad lessons to kids to continue on in LL if they want to succeed or opt out & become USSSA park like everyone else in the area. Meanwhile we will review our options and will try and make life miserable for the criminal actions by LL officials and the SE Director.
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PCMudcats

65 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  00:10:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
SE Director never communicated the PTCLL responses to the Competition committee & we the team never knew there was a "Competition Committee " meeting on July 31 @ 5PM to disqualify us. We never had the chance to represent ourselves...all about the kids:

Dear Peachtree City Little League families:

As most, if not all, of you know, our 11/12 Majors team was disqualified from participating in the Little League Southeast Regional tournament late last week. Since late Thursday night, when I received word of the Tournament Committee’s decision and had to call the team at a pep rally held for them at Johnny’s Pizza, emotions have been high and there have been many questions about what exactly happened. I will do my best to explain.

In the Little League system, it is the 11/12 Majors division that offers the opportunity to play in the Little League World Series in Williamsport, PA. Prior to Spring 2014 season, a group of 11 and 12 year-old-boys signed up to play 11/12 Majors division baseball with PTCLL. While we have fielded Majors teams in 2011 and 2013, as well as in years prior, our focus as a League is not necessarily on this division, like it is in other leagues. The vast majority of players in our League who are 11 and 12 register for and wish to play Intermediate (“50/70”). This is why we have not fielded a Majors All Star team in a number of years. It is Little League’s policy, however, that any 11/12 year old wishing to play Majors be able to do so. Accordingly, we created a Majors division for the Spring season. Based on Little League rules, PTCLL is required to operate a National League and an American League in each division. We are also required to submit paperwork each season to our District 4 Administrator, as well as the Southeast Region Director, showing the number and age of all players in our League.

We held a draft for the Majors division, as required by Little League rules, and because there were only enough players for two teams in this division, both a National and American League team were created. At the conclusion of the draft, the National League team was comprised of twelve 12-year-olds and two 11-year-olds. The American League team was predominately 11-year-olds. Both teams were required to play at least 12 games during the Spring season and they did so.

As a league, we are required to submit paperwork to the District Administrator and the Southeast Regional Director, showing that we held a draft, created rosters, played a schedule, etc. That paperwork must be approved by these Little League staffers before we are eligible to play in the District Tournament, State Tournament, etc. We submitted that required paperwork, which included the ages of the players on the respective Majors teams. Our paperwork was approved and we were deemed eligible to play in the District 4 Tournament. After winning that tournament, we were deemed eligible to play in the State Tournament. By that point, both the District Administrator and the Southeast Region Director had received and approved our paperwork.

Last Tuesday, the Southeast Region Director called us to inquire about the Majors draft and the composition of the teams. Unbeknownst to us until that time, there is a rule that prohibits more than eight (8) 12-year-olds per REGULAR SEASON team. The All Star team can be all 12 year-olds, if a league so chooses. We were clearly, and completely unknowingly, in violation of that rule. From the time that error was brought to our attention, we have admitted that we made that mistake. Little League has some 300-400 pages of rules and regulations and there are some rules unique to only the Majors division. We missed that rule, plain and simple. Had we known that rule, or had our error been called to our attention when our paperwork was submitted to Little League, we would have pooled all of the players and re-drafted. It would have been a simple fix, had we realized we were in violation.

At around 8:15 Thursday night, while the Majors team was at a pep rally at Johnny’s Pizza, I received an email containing the decision of the Tournament Committee in Williamsport. Because we had violated the limit on 12-year-olds per REGULAR SEASON team, our team was deemed ineligible for the tournament starting the next day. We were also criticized for listing that the team had only played 12 games when they had really played 13 (a typographical error that was of absolutely no practical consequence) and for not specifically rostering two assistant coaches as the rules required. Instead, we had listed four coaches, all of whom had been properly background-checked and approved (another criticism of absolutely no practical consequence).

I want to be clear that from the instant we realized we had made a mistake, we admitted it. Our VP of Baseball, Patrick Gloriod, accepted responsibility for our missing the rule. I accepted responsibility for our missing the rule. We begged and pleaded, by email and phone, for Little League not to penalize our players- all of whom are polite, respectful, hardworking ball players. Our pleas fell on deaf ears.

We teach our children every day to take responsibility for their actions. We teach them to face adversity, lean into the discomfort, admit when you are wrong. We missed this rule, plain and simple- but so did the District Administrator and the Southeast Region Director. I have spent many hours in discussions with the general counsel for Little League in the last few days and I believe that the leadership in Williamsport believes that this was “an innocent mistake.” The tragedy is that despite at least two Little League staffers approving our paperwork- despite that innocent mistake, it was still our players who were punished. It was still our players who lost the chance to live the dream of every young ball player- to make it toWilliamsport.

The Little League Pledge is as follows:

I trust in God.
I love my country
and will respect its laws.
I will play fair
and strive to win.
But win or lose,
I will always do my best.

We are a volunteer organization. Our Board of Directors, managers, coaches, are all volunteers. We give hours upon hours of our time to try to provide a positive experience for our and your children. We do our best, win or lose. Unfortunately, it is with the deepest regret and sadness that our best was not good enough for these young men who, to us, will ALWAYS be 2014 District 4 and Georgia State CHAMPIONS. I do not know what tomorrowbrings, but my sincere hope is that we can move forward as an organization, learn from our mistakes and find the best way possible to honor these fine young men.

Thank You,
Brandon Taylor
PTCLL Board President
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3sportfamily

73 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  09:41:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Balker

I promise this is my last post on this topic as I am bored by it. If I post again on it I promise I will go away for a year.



Balker - I grant you immunity from this comment - this forum is more interesting with you as a part of the discussion....

MY last comment on this topic is...

LL reminds me of the good ol boy network running the old (and new) college football bowl games. They are trying to stay relevent - but many want to see a real champion - while others want things to remain the same.

But they have the national tv contract with ABC/ESPN - which we can all agree it would be really cool to be a part of. Hence - PTCLL went thru a ton of effort, did their best to meet a crazy web of rules, but were not part of the true network and got screwed.

The proliferation of travel ball has hurt the traditional youth leagues (LL, Dizzy Dean, and to a lesser extent Ripken), but also we are now seeing how travel ball is changing. At the older age groups - it was about recruiting the best kids for a showcase/tournament team - and they often never practiced together.

This trend has begun to move to younger age groups. Even at 12 last year, and I think we will see this more prevelant this year at 13, how many teams will rarely practice together as a full squad? So it is not just the money and TV that is adding to this dilemna - but it is also us parents. While some say development is most important - we can just watch what is happening during this silly season to recognize - in many cases it is not about development - but who can build the best team.

So I see this whole episode is the collision of the desire to keep things the way they used to be with the realities of today's world.

In the end we all have different motivations and priorities. But everyone is trying to do what they think is right for their child and family - as they should. We are enjoying the ride, creating life long memories with our kids, and hopefully teaching them life lessons thru sports.

So I close with..

I hate it for the kids. They didnt deserve any of this - but there is a life lesson in there somewhere... and...

gosh I can't wait for next season because we are going to be good and every kid is a flamethrower with 2 kids who throw over 80!

Laughing hysterically at myself!
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LLfan

3 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  10:42:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe everyone feels bad for the PTC players. They didn't do anything wrong and the Little League organization let them down.

I don't believe this was a simple mistake of not dotting the I's and crossing the T's. The PTC leadership created a two team league and stacked one of the teams so they could represent the park at the state and ultimately perhaps the LLWS. I realize that many people don't participate in little league or understand the rules but mistakes were clearly made upfront to give the PTC team an unfair advantage. When two teams are drafted and one made up of mostly aaa and major 12yo travel players and the other is made up of mostly 11yos, you are basically creating the Globetrotters and nationals for the purpose of playing some glorified scrimmages and then sending the top team to state. There is a post on the Citizen this morning from a PTC umpiring providing additional details.

Did the punishment fit the crime? I don't think so. Does Little League play favorites? I have no idea. What I do believe is that corners were cut in order to create a competitive advantage. Should it have been caught sooner? Absolutely,
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PCMudcats

65 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  13:54:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LLfan, if you call 14 good kids signing up to play Little League a competitive advantage then were guilty! Too stupid, too honest....we are not professional cheaters. Sorry you feel the way you do. I guess we don't have the right to play Little League.
I guess you advocate the SE Director for LL can overlook how her LL Friends orchestrate there drafts by placing all the kids in one league to gain the advantage? My friend it's been going on for years. Obviously, your politically aligned with we know who and your politiccal agenda doesn't fly! We see through it.
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wareagle

248 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  14:00:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LLFan

I do not have a dog in this fight, but I promise you that this happens in a lot of different towns and with all of the major rec organizations. If you do not try to "load" one side of the league, then you probably will never make it past the first level of any tournament. The teams that win district or state tournaments are almost always "loaded" to some degree. Does not make it right, but PTC only followed the lessons taught by Columbus and WR and other "winning" teams.
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bluesman43

3 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  14:20:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Check out this link for a California team that had an eerily similar disqualification

http://www.turnto23.com/sports/local-sports/rosedale-little-league-all-stars-feel-they-were-unjustly-disqualified-from-participation
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bballman

987 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2014 :  15:50:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll chime in on two things.

First is, all this is why Little League will never grow to big proportions. Too many rules (400 page rule book?? Sounds like Obamacare). What new league could possibly keep up with all that? Too many restrictions, too much paperwork, too much bureaucracy. Not a lot of people want to go thru all that to be able to play in the Little League organization.

Secondly, does anybody really think teams from other countries follow all these rules to the letter like teams in the U.S. are expected to? I seriously doubt it. More than likely, the U.S. is playing against the best from a whole country when we get to world play. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

I'm also wondering, how do you have a league with just two teams? Do they just play each other 12 times during the year? Or do they play other Little League areas? That seems kind of crazy to start a league with just two teams in it.
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