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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CoachMark |
Posted - 05/06/2015 : 09:42:56
MLB has endorsed the Pitch Smart guidelines from an Advisory Committee it put together headed by Dr James Andrews. The are published at MLB.com/pitchsmart
Currently Little League and Dixie Baseball are the only organizations fully compliant with Pitch Smart, which means they will fully enforce the pitching guidelines across all competitions.
Perfect Game & USA Baseball have Select Compliance which means that they will enforce the guidelines across 'select' competitions, but has a plan to become fully compliant.
GameChanger now offers the guidelines are part of the scoring program.
With this in mind, should we as parents insist that our kid's baseball teams adopt these guidelines? Should the GHSA mandate the guidelines including public access to information via GameChanger? If the guidelines are violated, what should the consequences be? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| scurray |
Posted - 06/16/2015 : 08:42:51
Thanks, good feedback, like the idea sitting the inning after. It is definitely got to be subjective. He pitched two innings game 2 on Sat., then caught a full game on Sun. Rest of time at CF or SS, and as this game can go, did not have a single ball hit to him in the field. So only other throwing was warming up before inning. The one thing I am beginning to realize is as an assistant is I have a lot to learn as the boys get older, I need to work on a in-game checklist. These things are hard to keep up with, knowing I need to have the same attention to all the kids, not just my son.
Does anyone know of good training programs for coaching youth baseball, especially as you get to the 12-14 range? A lot of the stuff I see tends to be geared towards the 8-10 younger kids. Drills, practice plans, etc. quote:
Originally posted by Locke
quote:
Originally posted by scurray
I'd appreciate some input on a couple things around this; my son is wrapping up 12u year in a few weeks, been playing many years mainly as a SS, CF and Pitcher. Small 90lb kid. He just started catching this season on a whim and has taken to it and loves it. A HS coach has said he has the tools to develop into a HS catcher. But he loves to pitch, and has years at SS and CF. I hate to limit him but start reading these guidelines about catching and pitching. At what point should he start limiting one or the other? Can he spend 13 and 14u still trying to do both? Our kids have never thrown more than 40 innings or 600 pitches in a season, my son is only at about 450 for the year in 12 games pitched.
Also, with these guidelines and days of rest, should those days of rest include not catching or playing SS? What if he pitches on Sat and catches on Sun or vice versa?
Just one guys opinion...
The pitchcount guidelines are great because they are objective and based on data. The additional bullet points provide good guidance, but are a bit more subjective. Discretion and common sense are also necessary. The points about catching are because that position tends to throw the ball a lot, whereas other spots players' arms get more rest. If your kid/player has pitched a lot, and there are a lot of balls hit to short or third base (plus warmups between innings, around the horn after strikeouts, etc) then his arm is not getting the rest there either & it's not really different than catching. Also, think of the difference in two situations: the first is a catcher in a league where kids can leadoff, there's a lot of stealing, a lot of wild pitches with a deep backstop, etc. The second, kids in their first year pitching, no leadoffs & the catcher never lets balls get past him, so almost no stealing. Yes there are still the throws back to the pitcher either way - but the stress & strain on the arm is very different than the first situation.
You have to use your judgement in concert with the guidelines.
Personally, I like to give a kid a rest inning after pitching or catching when I can. The key word (which unfortunately can be abused by coaches) is "AVOID." It doesn't say don't. To me, that means that I don't go into a game planning on doing those things if I can help it. On occasion, I feel like I don't have much of a choice. Same thing with same-day pitching. We avoid tournaments that have too many games & where I can help it, I don't throw a kid twice in a day. Not never - I did with one kid yesterday. The opposing coach whom we met in the championship game did just the opposite. We had 8 pitchers & played 4 games. I threw 4 kids in games 1 & 3 (Friday night & Sunday morning) and 4 different kids Saturday afternoon & Sunday afternoon. Basically all of my kids were in the 1 day rest range and all when 1 full day before throwing again. The two groups were pretty balanced. Out of the 8 - one kid threw twice in a day - 17 in the first, 20 in the second. We lost in the title game to a team that threw the same pitchers in both their games Saturday and a different set of kids in both games Sunday. They see those rest period limits as only coming into play at the end of a day and just disregard the "avoid pitching in multiple games on the same day" advisory. In their book, they're fine with throwing a kid 25, 25 and 24 in the same day because they stayed under the 75 pitch daily limit for the age. I don't agree.
As to picking a position - I'll admit I'm an anti-specialist. I want to see athletes doing as many different things, different sports, different positions for as long as possible. And we're gaining significant traction in the football world where each year more & more college coaches are showing that a very high percentage of the kids they recruit played other sports. And the NFL draft this year where 224 out of 256 players drafted were multi-sport athletes in high school. I realize much of the baseball world doesn't share that view, and I don't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here.
|
| Locke |
Posted - 06/15/2015 : 22:50:31
quote:
Originally posted by scurray
I'd appreciate some input on a couple things around this; my son is wrapping up 12u year in a few weeks, been playing many years mainly as a SS, CF and Pitcher. Small 90lb kid. He just started catching this season on a whim and has taken to it and loves it. A HS coach has said he has the tools to develop into a HS catcher. But he loves to pitch, and has years at SS and CF. I hate to limit him but start reading these guidelines about catching and pitching. At what point should he start limiting one or the other? Can he spend 13 and 14u still trying to do both? Our kids have never thrown more than 40 innings or 600 pitches in a season, my son is only at about 450 for the year in 12 games pitched.
Also, with these guidelines and days of rest, should those days of rest include not catching or playing SS? What if he pitches on Sat and catches on Sun or vice versa?
Just one guys opinion...
The pitchcount guidelines are great because they are objective and based on data. The additional bullet points provide good guidance, but are a bit more subjective. Discretion and common sense are also necessary. The points about catching are because that position tends to throw the ball a lot, whereas other spots players' arms get more rest. If your kid/player has pitched a lot, and there are a lot of balls hit to short or third base (plus warmups between innings, around the horn after strikeouts, etc) then his arm is not getting the rest there either & it's not really different than catching. Also, think of the difference in two situations: the first is a catcher in a league where kids can leadoff, there's a lot of stealing, a lot of wild pitches with a deep backstop, etc. The second, kids in their first year pitching, no leadoffs & the catcher never lets balls get past him, so almost no stealing. Yes there are still the throws back to the pitcher either way - but the stress & strain on the arm is very different than the first situation.
You have to use your judgement in concert with the guidelines.
Personally, I like to give a kid a rest inning after pitching or catching when I can. The key word (which unfortunately can be abused by coaches) is "AVOID." It doesn't say don't. To me, that means that I don't go into a game planning on doing those things if I can help it. On occasion, I feel like I don't have much of a choice. Same thing with same-day pitching. We avoid tournaments that have too many games & where I can help it, I don't throw a kid twice in a day. Not never - I did with one kid yesterday. The opposing coach whom we met in the championship game did just the opposite. We had 8 pitchers & played 4 games. I threw 4 kids in games 1 & 3 (Friday night & Sunday morning) and 4 different kids Saturday afternoon & Sunday afternoon. Basically all of my kids were in the 1 day rest range and all when 1 full day before throwing again. The two groups were pretty balanced. Out of the 8 - one kid threw twice in a day - 17 in the first, 20 in the second. We lost in the title game to a team that threw the same pitchers in both their games Saturday and a different set of kids in both games Sunday. They see those rest period limits as only coming into play at the end of a day and just disregard the "avoid pitching in multiple games on the same day" advisory. In their book, they're fine with throwing a kid 25, 25 and 24 in the same day because they stayed under the 75 pitch daily limit for the age. I don't agree.
As to picking a position - I'll admit I'm an anti-specialist. I want to see athletes doing as many different things, different sports, different positions for as long as possible. And we're gaining significant traction in the football world where each year more & more college coaches are showing that a very high percentage of the kids they recruit played other sports. And the NFL draft this year where 224 out of 256 players drafted were multi-sport athletes in high school. I realize much of the baseball world doesn't share that view, and I don't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/15/2015 : 21:13:30
It isn't an exact science and please done think that if your son pitches and catches, even in the same day, his arm will fall off or be broken...etc. what the study is trying to say is that stress, and repeated stress, is bad for a youth arm, let's all say DUH to that.
I am of the opinion that the spirit of the guidelines is to say let's not have a kid throw back the ball to the pitcher for 5 innings and then be the closing pitcher. I have always believed there should be guidelines for catchers as well, but there just aren't. This all falls under the common sense rules. If a kids legs are tired from catching then his pitching mechanics will be off, and pitching mechanics being off is the number one way for a youth arm to get hurt.
Next you have to consider your sons strengths, and his weaknesses while you play the wait and see game. It's been my experience that kids that play other positions tend to be part time pitchers, son 6+ inning pitchers. I would find a team that will train him as both. If he gets to 11th grade and he's maxed out at 82 mph and he's right handed I would focus on catching. A RHP pitching 82 doesn't get much interest, a catcher having an 82mph throw down gets a lot. You won't know his real strengths until 15/16/17 until it becomes clear what position his abilities favor find a team that will foster all of them. |
| scurray |
Posted - 06/15/2015 : 10:49:05
I'd appreciate some input on a couple things around this; my son is wrapping up 12u year in a few weeks, been playing many years mainly as a SS, CF and Pitcher. Small 90lb kid. He just started catching this season on a whim and has taken to it and loves it. A HS coach has said he has the tools to develop into a HS catcher. But he loves to pitch, and has years at SS and CF. I hate to limit him but start reading these guidelines about catching and pitching. At what point should he start limiting one or the other? Can he spend 13 and 14u still trying to do both? Our kids have never thrown more than 40 innings or 600 pitches in a season, my son is only at about 450 for the year in 12 games pitched.
Also, with these guidelines and days of rest, should those days of rest include not catching or playing SS? What if he pitches on Sat and catches on Sun or vice versa?
Thanks,quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Locke
quote:
Originally posted by CoachMark
I think many on here are only looking at the pitch-count limits and not reading the other recommendations by Pitch Smart. Several of the other potential problem areas that people have brought up are also addressed by Pitch Smart such as: pitching on consecutive days, radar guns, and playing other positions.
I know in their bullet points they say "Avoid playing catcher while not pitching" and your paraphrase "Pitchers should not also be Catchers" was even more restrictive. I that's a poor way to say it and not good for kids either. The original Little League guidelines were more specific - that players were not to play catcher after pitching especially after a higher pitch count appearance. BUT - I will absolutely argue that it's good for pitchers to spend some time behind the plate. Getting a better understanding of the other side of the connection makes you a better pitcher. By all means, take into consideration the appropriate rest a kid deserves & playing catcher is not rest. But categorically saying you can't play pitcher and catcher is counter to the development of young players.
I think the multiple teams thing is an issue - but I'd say no more than 2. Playing on a city league and an tournament team is fine - provided there is understanding/communication between league & tournament coaches. I've coached both - every Sunday night, I send out an email to the coaches and parents, checking up how much their kids threw over the weekend & what their availability is in the week ahead. Though I've managed it as a coach, I've also pushed it back to the parents - that their word to rest a kid always trumps mine or what the charts say & that they need to take responsibility for it. Every parent I've had has gotten a copy of the guidelines from me. I'm sure it ticks off some of their future coaches, but that's just tough.
Agree 100%, while care has to be taken not to abuse young arms...my own kid has said that being a catcher makes him a better pitcher and a better hitter.
As a pitcher he can relate to what misses are easier to catch and try to accommodate as best he can. As a hitter...well if you have to constantly read the types of spin on a ball to figure out where it will go in order to block/catch this allows you to track a spinning ball you are trying to hit easier as well. I think all kids should take a shot behind the plate and it would improve their readability of the ball being released by the pitcher.
|
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 06/08/2015 : 09:05:05
quote:
Originally posted by Locke
quote:
Originally posted by CoachMark
I think many on here are only looking at the pitch-count limits and not reading the other recommendations by Pitch Smart. Several of the other potential problem areas that people have brought up are also addressed by Pitch Smart such as: pitching on consecutive days, radar guns, and playing other positions.
I know in their bullet points they say "Avoid playing catcher while not pitching" and your paraphrase "Pitchers should not also be Catchers" was even more restrictive. I that's a poor way to say it and not good for kids either. The original Little League guidelines were more specific - that players were not to play catcher after pitching especially after a higher pitch count appearance. BUT - I will absolutely argue that it's good for pitchers to spend some time behind the plate. Getting a better understanding of the other side of the connection makes you a better pitcher. By all means, take into consideration the appropriate rest a kid deserves & playing catcher is not rest. But categorically saying you can't play pitcher and catcher is counter to the development of young players.
I think the multiple teams thing is an issue - but I'd say no more than 2. Playing on a city league and an tournament team is fine - provided there is understanding/communication between league & tournament coaches. I've coached both - every Sunday night, I send out an email to the coaches and parents, checking up how much their kids threw over the weekend & what their availability is in the week ahead. Though I've managed it as a coach, I've also pushed it back to the parents - that their word to rest a kid always trumps mine or what the charts say & that they need to take responsibility for it. Every parent I've had has gotten a copy of the guidelines from me. I'm sure it ticks off some of their future coaches, but that's just tough.
Agree 100%, while care has to be taken not to abuse young arms...my own kid has said that being a catcher makes him a better pitcher and a better hitter.
As a pitcher he can relate to what misses are easier to catch and try to accommodate as best he can. As a hitter...well if you have to constantly read the types of spin on a ball to figure out where it will go in order to block/catch this allows you to track a spinning ball you are trying to hit easier as well. I think all kids should take a shot behind the plate and it would improve their readability of the ball being released by the pitcher. |
| aSouthPaw |
Posted - 06/08/2015 : 07:35:26
I read the PG press release this morning on the winners from this weekend's tourney and it didn't take very long to see that the 16yo MVPitcher winner threw 55 pitches on Saturday and another 103 on Sunday. I understand PG has not yet committed to following the guidelines for all competitions but I personally would like to see them use this as an example of what not to do and give the award to somebody else. |
| Locke |
Posted - 06/07/2015 : 23:42:31
quote:
Originally posted by CoachMark
I think many on here are only looking at the pitch-count limits and not reading the other recommendations by Pitch Smart. Several of the other potential problem areas that people have brought up are also addressed by Pitch Smart such as: pitching on consecutive days, radar guns, and playing other positions.
I know in their bullet points they say "Avoid playing catcher while not pitching" and your paraphrase "Pitchers should not also be Catchers" was even more restrictive. I that's a poor way to say it and not good for kids either. The original Little League guidelines were more specific - that players were not to play catcher after pitching especially after a higher pitch count appearance. BUT - I will absolutely argue that it's good for pitchers to spend some time behind the plate. Getting a better understanding of the other side of the connection makes you a better pitcher. By all means, take into consideration the appropriate rest a kid deserves & playing catcher is not rest. But categorically saying you can't play pitcher and catcher is counter to the development of young players.
I think the multiple teams thing is an issue - but I'd say no more than 2. Playing on a city league and an tournament team is fine - provided there is understanding/communication between league & tournament coaches. I've coached both - every Sunday night, I send out an email to the coaches and parents, checking up how much their kids threw over the weekend & what their availability is in the week ahead. Though I've managed it as a coach, I've also pushed it back to the parents - that their word to rest a kid always trumps mine or what the charts say & that they need to take responsibility for it. Every parent I've had has gotten a copy of the guidelines from me. I'm sure it ticks off some of their future coaches, but that's just tough.
|
| Locke |
Posted - 06/07/2015 : 23:06:02
The funny thing about the curve ball issue is that at least through the first couple of years of pitching, the biggest thing I've struggled with the 9 & 10 year old kids is to get on top of the ball and get a good snap down. To me it seems small hands just tend to have a harder time with this & at least with the kids I've worked with, more often than not, the ball is sliding off the side of their fingers & the spin is more like a curve/slider. So spin on the ball just isn't a good indicator unfortunately.
Not saying it's right or wrong, but for me, there are two indicators that will cause me to get after a kid to change:
First is if the wrist is breaking/twisting rather than just snapping down. This is usually what our umpires will look for.
The second is a little more subtle, but at least in my opinion, more important. It's the relative wrist and elbow position. When the arm bends and the wrist turns in during delivery and the elbow goes out, whether the kid is doing it intentionally to try and throw a curve or not, I'll talk to him about it.
In addition to noting the difference between older, more mature pitchers and younger ones that others have mentioned, I'll say it this way: there may well be less risk than is typically considered with throwing curveballs - but trying to throw curve balls is most definitely a higher risk activity. |
| dad4kids |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 10:30:26
Hshuler is right; it's about mechanics and, above all, overuse (or pitching too much). While a curve ball thrown with proper mechanics may not exert greater varus torque upon the elbow than a fastball, youth pitchers typically have imperfect mechanics.
Dr. Andrews and others confirmed this in various biophysical studies. However, the subjects in these studies were ADULT college age pitchers who have well developed mechanics. Andrews himself does not believe that the conclusions from this study are applicable to youth pitchers who more often than not have faulty mechanics (particularly as they fatigue). In other words, allowing youth pitchers to throw curve balls and sliders may correlate with a higher risk of injury for youth pitchers.
But the greatest risk of all is allowing them to pitch too much. Proceed with caution.
Here is a cite to and quote from Andrews paper on the subject for those interested:
quote:
CONCLUSION
A youth baseball pitcher has a 5% risk of serious arm
injury within 10 years. Pitching more than 100 innings
in a calendar year increases the risk of injury. Playing
catcher in addition to pitching may increase the risk of
injury as well. The current study was unable to determine
whether starting curveballs before age 13 years increases
the risk of injury. On the basis of these findings and review
of the literature, we recommend that pitchers in high
school and younger pitch no more than 100 innings in competition
in any calendar year. Young pitchers who have not
developed should be limited to even less, and no pitcher
should continue to pitch when fatigued. A baseball player
may play multiple positions, but we discourage an individual
from playing both pitcher and catcher.
Risk of Serious Injury for Young
Baseball Pitchers
A 10-Year Prospective Study
http://www.udel.edu/PT/PT%20Clinical%20Services/journalclub/sojc/10-11/Feb/Baseball2.pdf |
| hshuler |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 11:00:13
Curveball according to Merriam-Webster - a slow or moderately fast baseball pitch thrown with spin to make it swerve downward and usually to the left when thrown from the right hand or to the right when thrown from the left hand.
The real issue is the mechanics of how you throw it. Most will agree that the snapping of the wrist that causes stress the inside of the elbow is not good. |
| rippit |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 09:57:24
Your vocab isn't weak...it must be a guy thing. Lol. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 08:57:56
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/health/little-league-curveballs/
This article actually says Dr. Andrews admits he found throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball....it is just his opinion that kids shouldn't throw a curve until they can shave....once again...no definition of what a curve is.
The problem is, like me, some kids don't shave until college. :-)
LOL, and I have a 12 year old who has to shave about once a week or the left and right side of his upper lip look really dirty! Not sure if that constitutes "shaving", and still don't know what "curve ball" means *sigh*...this board makes me feel like my vocabulary is just really weak! |
| hshuler |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 05:53:30
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/health/little-league-curveballs/
This article actually says Dr. Andrews admits he found throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball....it is just his opinion that kids shouldn't throw a curve until they can shave....once again...no definition of what a curve is.
[/quote]
The problem is, like me, some kids don't shave until college. :-) |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/26/2015 : 08:55:23
quote:
Originally posted by CoachMark
I think many on here are only looking at the pitch-count limits and not reading the other recommendations by Pitch Smart. Several of the other potential problem areas that people have brought up are also addressed by Pitch Smart such as: pitching on consecutive days, radar guns, and playing other positions.
If you read all of the information put out by pitch smart, you would use these rules in addition to the pitch count limits:
- No pitching in two games on the same day
- No pitching on consecutive days (although this is contradicted somewhat by the pitch count limits of 0 days rest for a small number of pitches)
- No pitching with any signs of fatigue
- Pitchers should not also be Catchers
- No pitching with injuries to other areas of the body
- No curveballs or sliders at young age
- No radar gun use
- No more than 100 innings in a calendar year
- No throwing (at all) for 2-3 months year to allow rest. I believe this also means do not play QB.
- Avoid pitching for 4 months per year
- No playing on 2 teams at same time
I agree with just about everything that bballman has said. If all organizations adopted the guidelines, then the temptation for abuse would be gone. I would like to see GHSA adopt these guidelines first and mandate all teams use GameChanger or another public scoring system that to publicly track pitch counts LIVE.
This is not likely to happen quickly so my question to the most experienced on here is:
"What is the best way to approach your HS coach with these recommendations so your son is not a potential target for over-use?"
Coach Mark...is there a definition anywhere about what is a "curve ball"?
When my son was 9u there was a pitcher who had been taught by his dad to do a side arm curve ball and many parents objected...there was much talk about how anything sidearm at 9u was just stupid....I listened but wasn't educated on the topic so I didn't say anything. Then in 12u a "football curve ball" (over the top just like a fastball/football throw) was taught to some kids...this didn't look like the side arm pitch that everyone got upset about, so I still haven't said anything. I did read up on the subject and found several articles that said a curve ball is even less stressful than throwing a fastball:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/sports/baseball/26score.html?_r=0
It appears there are different types of pitches all lumped into the phrase "curve ball"...anyone care to enlighten me on which are bad?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/health/little-league-curveballs/
This article actually says Dr. Andrews admits he found throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball....it is just his opinion that kids shouldn't throw a curve until they can shave....once again...no definition of what a curve is. |
| CoachMark |
Posted - 05/26/2015 : 07:06:20
I think many on here are only looking at the pitch-count limits and not reading the other recommendations by Pitch Smart. Several of the other potential problem areas that people have brought up are also addressed by Pitch Smart such as: pitching on consecutive days, radar guns, and playing other positions.
If you read all of the information put out by pitch smart, you would use these rules in addition to the pitch count limits:
- No pitching in two games on the same day
- No pitching on consecutive days (although this is contradicted somewhat by the pitch count limits of 0 days rest for a small number of pitches)
- No pitching with any signs of fatigue
- Pitchers should not also be Catchers
- No pitching with injuries to other areas of the body
- No curveballs or sliders at young age
- No radar gun use
- No more than 100 innings in a calendar year
- No throwing (at all) for 2-3 months year to allow rest. I believe this also means do not play QB.
- Avoid pitching for 4 months per year
- No playing on 2 teams at same time
I agree with just about everything that bballman has said. If all organizations adopted the guidelines, then the temptation for abuse would be gone. I would like to see GHSA adopt these guidelines first and mandate all teams use GameChanger or another public scoring system that to publicly track pitch counts LIVE.
This is not likely to happen quickly so my question to the most experienced on here is:
"What is the best way to approach your HS coach with these recommendations so your son is not a potential target for over-use?"
|
| Locke |
Posted - 05/21/2015 : 02:43:53
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
...Playing with a roster of 10 in today's tournaments is asking for trouble. All you need are 2 kids that are off that day and your whole plan is in shambles and you are stuck overusing someone or pitching someone else well beyond when they are fatigued because you have no one else to put in. Not every kid is going to be able to go the 3 or 4 or 5 innings you have planned for them every time in order for you to get thru the tournament with the limited amount of players that you have.
I'll bring this up as well. After a kid pitches, he should be resting. Not going back out onto the field. So, you have one kid out of the game. If you have to bring in a relief pitcher, he needs to warm up before he goes in, right? Problem is, with 10 kids, you can't have a pitcher resting and a pitcher warming up at the same time, because that only leaves you 8 players on the field. If you want to do it right and have the kid's health first and foremost, it is impossible to do with a 10 player roster.
I guess to some extent, the makeup of your team is a big factor. If you have a very selective team drawing from a big/talented pool - and you have 8+ kids who can pitch & pretty much everyone can play every position, then a roster of 10 might be doable. I've never had that. And I think I actually throw more pitchers than most, but I always have 4 or 5 kids who just aren't able to pitch (yet!). I think your point is spot on - that unless you can pitch everyone, a roster of 10 for tournaments just isn't very compatible with the PitchSmart guidelines.
I think it's good to have a couple of kids sitting on the bench each inning & rotate them through. I feel I do some of my best teaching in those situations - watching the game on the bench with a coach is great for learning the game. I actually like it competitively as well. For innings where I think there's a chance I may have to pull a pitcher, I love to have the next guy on the bench with me. We can talk about what's working & what isn't, talk about the hitters and I can help get his mind right to come into the game. That in addition to actually physically warming up prior to taking the mound. And similarly, aside from the physical rest of pulling a pitcher & taking him to the bench, I can talk to him. Make sure he takes it properly, doesn't feel like he let his team down or that sort of thing. Because it's funny how often removal as a pitcher is followed by booting a ball as an infielder.
It's not always possible - but when it is, having my next pitcher on the bench and bringing the replaced pitcher to the bench is a win-win for me. Good for the kids and good for the team competitively. |
| Locke |
Posted - 05/21/2015 : 02:15:14
I'm a huge fan of pitch counts & have been using them to try & protect the kids arms well before the PitchSmart or Little League guidelines came out. That said, I think for the young kids (9-12) their guidelines are overly cautious on the low end and could be more conservative on the high end. Kids that age - when they get tired, they break form. They put more stress on their arms (and bodies in general), throw more balls & hittable pitches & are more like to have problems at higher pitch counts. I think 75 is too high for a 9 year old. Younger kids also recover faster, so I think if they're on the low end of the range, pitching in consecutive days is less dangerous than a single high pitch game.
I'd rather have a kid pitch 21-25 pitches in consecutive days than 66-75 in a single day/game. And frankly, it's not even close. But - then both of those days should counted basically like a 42-50 pitch day and be followed by 2 days of rest rather than just one. It also is more workable for tournament coaches - on a two day tournament, if a kid hits 21 pitches on Saturday he's done. That's a bit too restrictive. I think it also encourages a coach to say "heck with it, he's hit 21 so he can't go tomorrow anyway, let's ride him hard today."
I think in this aspect, the guidelines (smartly) strived for simplicity - to put what I've described into a clear rule risks making them too complex and would cut down on compliance.
For me, far and away the greatest benefit of the guidelines is changing the culture. That means getting the coaches, parents and kids used to paying attention to it. And it provides some definitive means of measurement. Over time, the specifics can be tweaked a little bit or a little more flexibility added.
|
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/20/2015 : 10:19:14
Totally agree on the mound size issue, as well as maintenance of the mounds. We were at a tourney in Cumming a few weeks ago and there was an artificial mound with a VERY large bald spot on it that all pitchers either had to avoid or slip when they hit it...the slipping made for some VERY crazy pitches.
The bald spot threw off EVERYONE'S mechanics, that could not have been healthy. My son pitched and he is 5'7, he had to cut his stride short in order to land securely, he looked very weird. While there was still skill involved in playing in that tourney I think which pitcher could maneuver that bald spot was a HUGE game changer...and I don't think that should be part of baseball. |
| mikepayne |
Posted - 05/20/2015 : 09:50:15
I agree inning limits are not a good way to keep arms healthy. I also think taking at least 3 months off from throwing is smart. To answer CaCO3Girl, putting down the radar guns for kids 12u would be a good start (not a mandated rule). Changing speeds and location should be what pumps up coaches not 65mph.
If I were el-prez my safety rule would be face masks for all kids 12u when in the batters box. Also some of these temporary mounds that are so small the pitchers land off the front of it. That can't be good for a pitchers mechanics.
Good luck to all this weekend. The season is flying by.
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph" Thomas Paine.
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| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/20/2015 : 08:34:55
mikepayne, the bottom line is that there have been more than enough proof that their is a problem with youth pitchers arms.
While I don't believe the pitchsmart rules will fix everything at least it is SOMETHING. If not the pitchsmart rules what rules should there be in your opinion. |
| bballman |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 16:36:54
quote:
Originally posted by mikepayne
To steal from Reagan a little bit -This is the issue of this pitch count business: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon what we see in front of us and confess that the intellectual elite can plan our pitching rotation for us better than we can plan them ourselves. That they "care" more for our players than we do.
No thanks.
I appreciate the Reagan quote. I am a big believer in self-governance. For myself and you and for any adult, that is fine. However, we are talking about the health of minors. And to this point, we as adults, have not done a very good job of it, evidenced by the increase in the number of TJ and shoulder surgeries. I don't think we are taking away any constitutional liberties by making sure our young ball players are not abused by ignorant adults whose care we put them under.
Until the explosion of travel ball - particularly at the younger ages - we did not have to worry about this because the amount of time spent on the field was minuscule compared to what they do today. With the expansion of travel baseball - moving to year round, tournaments almost every weekend, starting at 7 or 8 or 9, times have changed. And so must our response to just letting things happen.
If you want to trust a coach to leave your son in as long as he wants, with no regard to your child's future, that's up to you. Keep in mind, there are already limitations in place taking away the power of self-regulating coaches. It is called inning limitations on pitchers. EVERY organization has them. The problem is, they are pretty much useless. Pitch counts, while not perfect, are much more specific than inning limits. So, we are really just talking about replacing one restriction with another.
By the way, mikepayne, no Thomas Payne quotes you could have used? Would have been more apropos.  |
| mikepayne |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 14:50:46
To steal from Reagan a little bit -This is the issue of this pitch count business: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon what we see in front of us and confess that the intellectual elite can plan our pitching rotation for us better than we can plan them ourselves. That they "care" more for our players than we do.
No thanks. |
| bballman |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 12:55:08
The idea that pitch counts have been around for a while, and don't work is not really accurate. They are NOT implemented in any organization other than Little League and I think USA baseball as of this point in time. Little League just a few years - USA baseball less than that. You cannot say pitch counts - and the PitchSmart guidelines - do not work when they have not been implemented and adhered to by anyone for a significant enough period of time to judge that. Little League really only goes to 12u and then the pitchers fall under the travel limitations of innings. Even during the Little League season, players play on travel teams which use the innings limitations. USA baseball is a non factor at this point in my opinion.
Several of the responses on here is the reason why these guidelines need to be implemented in every level of youth baseball - including HS. The foremost experts in the field are saying the PitchSmart guidelines are the best thing to be doing for the young baseball players today - and still people just take this with a grain of salt and dismiss it. There are many people trying to educate parents and coaches about the results of research on thousands and thousands of youth pitchers, yet for some, it does no good.
mikepayne, do you think hospitals that treat cancer patients are trying to skew results of cancer studies so that they can continue to get business to treat cancer patients? I REALLY don't think so. Why would it be any different for Dr. Andrews? He is close to retirement anyway. I don't think he needs the money to the point he wants to perpetuate TJ surgeries.
Of course, the exact number of pitches recommended do not fit EVERY pitcher. Some may be able to go more and MANY will not be able to reach that limit without doing damage. However, it is the best thing available. Not every coach can make a determination based on the fatigue of the pitchers, so some standard has to be put in place.
I am really tired of parents and coaches thinking "My kid is different. This really doesn't apply to him." That is why we are in this boat in the first place. People get caught up in the game. People think their kid is different. Adhere to the guidelines and your kid will be better off in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by T13
Not from anyone in previous years from what we were doing.... We've had a few show up with sore arms after lessons during the week or a dad having his son throw all week to get ready but not tell us.... But usually just soreness in the muscle.
No one has addressed this post, so I figured I would. Pitching injuries do not only happen on the field while you are playing. They are cumulative, over time. They are the result of ALL throwing and pitching. Whether that be on the field while the kid is playing for you or during bullpens or doing long toss or while pitching for another team, etc... T13, sounds like you have a plan and best of luck to you. But, you do not know what the future holds. What the kids do on the field is just a portion of their total workload. Decreasing the workload on your kids is what will allow them to progress as far as their talent will let them. Playing with a roster of 10 in today's tournaments is asking for trouble. All you need are 2 kids that are off that day and your whole plan is in shambles and you are stuck overusing someone or pitching someone else well beyond when they are fatigued because you have no one else to put in. Not every kid is going to be able to go the 3 or 4 or 5 innings you have planned for them every time in order for you to get thru the tournament with the limited amount of players that you have.
I'll bring this up as well. After a kid pitches, he should be resting. Not going back out onto the field. So, you have one kid out of the game. If you have to bring in a relief pitcher, he needs to warm up before he goes in, right? Problem is, with 10 kids, you can't have a pitcher resting and a pitcher warming up at the same time, because that only leaves you 8 players on the field. If you want to do it right and have the kid's health first and foremost, it is impossible to do with a 10 player roster.
I think I've said enough on this subject. I'll bow out and let others debate the merits of keeping kids healthy. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 12:04:39
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I REALLY think the days rest is just as, if not more important. Follow the days rest guidelines and you will be doing your pitchers a huge favor.
I have a friend who pitched in college and the minors once tell me, it's MORE stressful on the arm to pitch consecutive days, then continue in one game... We (9U) have a 50 pitch limit for kids, and try desperately to not pitch kids on consecutive days. Are we forfeiting wins? Maybe. But my friend's comment really hit home with me, and made sense. Getting up, warming up, stressing the arm consecutively could potentially damage the arm more than pushing the max pitch count in 1 day. |
| bballman |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 09:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by kgenerals
What I'm confused about right now is what really is the pitching guideline. I thought Pitch Smart came out with the best guideline and Dr. Andrews is considered to have a conservative approach. Now you are telling me that his recommended max of 75 pitches is still very aggressive. Now I'm really confused as to what to follow and be able to tell a coach that they are doing too much. Our team is currently nowhere near approaching 75 pitches, but we are also definitely doing more than 2 innings a weekend. I thought we were well within the guideline. Per what you are saying, they really should only be doing 2 innings a weekend, which translates to 20 to 40 pitches a weekend.
Here are the guidelines:
AGE DAILY MAX (PITCHES) REQUIRED REST (PITCHES)
0 Days 1 Days 2 Days 3 Days 4 Days
9-10 75 1-20 21-35 36-50 51-65 66+
11-12 85 1-20 21-35 36-50 51-65 66+
There is no mention of innings pitched. I think what CaCOGirl3 is saying is that although the max recommended is 75, if a kid is struggling before that, a coach needs to make the move and take him out. Not every kid can throw 75 pitches in a game. Sometimes the same kid can go 75 one week and the next week, for some reason, may get tired at 40 pitches and need to come out. The guidelines are good as a max limit generally. However, there is still a level of common sense and evaluation a coach must do to determine what is good for that pitcher at that particular time.
Here's an example. When my son was 17 and getting recruited for college, he pitched in a WWBA game. A coach that was recruiting him came to watch him pitch. It was pre-arranged. My son had gone 90-100 pitches on numerous occasions in the past and was pretty comfortable with it. However, on this day, it was around 98 degrees out and very humid. He pitched 4 innings and around 60 pitches and told the coach he was done. Just too hot and tired to go more. The recommended pitch limit for that age group is 105, but that didn't mean he HAD to throw 105 pitches. He knew he was done and let the coach know.
For younger kids, more than likely, the coach needs to make that determination. If it's hot and the kid is sweating profusely, or he just looks really tired, or has lost velocity, make the call and pull the kid. You don't have to wait until he is getting hit either. In the above case, my son hadn't given up any runs, he just knew he was done. As a coach, you have to make that call.
I REALLY think the days rest is just as, if not more important. Follow the days rest guidelines and you will be doing your pitchers a huge favor.
And just to let you know since you are new to this. The tournament organizations use an inning limitation in their tournaments with no consideration for pitch count or for days rest. While making sure you don't go over the inning limits and wind up forfeiting a game, hold yourself to a higher standard than what the tournaments require you to. Pay attention to and follow the guidelines that PitchSmart has put out. It will help the kids in the long run. |
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