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CoachMark
216 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2015 : 09:42:56
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MLB has endorsed the Pitch Smart guidelines from an Advisory Committee it put together headed by Dr James Andrews. The are published at MLB.com/pitchsmart
Currently Little League and Dixie Baseball are the only organizations fully compliant with Pitch Smart, which means they will fully enforce the pitching guidelines across all competitions.
Perfect Game & USA Baseball have Select Compliance which means that they will enforce the guidelines across 'select' competitions, but has a plan to become fully compliant.
GameChanger now offers the guidelines are part of the scoring program.
With this in mind, should we as parents insist that our kid's baseball teams adopt these guidelines? Should the GHSA mandate the guidelines including public access to information via GameChanger? If the guidelines are violated, what should the consequences be? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2015 : 13:59:13
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I think it is unfair to have a one size fits all pitching guideline....nothing is one size fits all when it comes to baseball. I would bet my house that if you took 100 kids and tracked them from 7u-18u and they stuck to this guideline 100% you would still have TJ surgeries and still have injuries.
While I applaud the Pitch Smart concept in that they are TRYING to protect pitchers arms, no two pitchers arms are the same and therefore no one guideline will work on all pitchers. I would really like to see the statistics of a 14u pitcher warming up and pitching 20 pitches in 7 games in 7 straight days...many experts are saying the stopping and starting so frequently is what is causing the problems.
Obviously 1 kid throwing 150+ pitches in one day does not sound like a smart plan...but I say get coaches a training seminar on when to recognize a tired arm, make it a pre-req to be a coach past 11u and THEN we might see some changes. These arbitrary numbers are not the way in my opinion. |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2015 : 21:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I think it is unfair to have a one size fits all pitching guideline....nothing is one size fits all when it comes to baseball. I would bet my house that if you took 100 kids and tracked them from 7u-18u and they stuck to this guideline 100% you would still have TJ surgeries and still have injuries.
While I applaud the Pitch Smart concept in that they are TRYING to protect pitchers arms, no two pitchers arms are the same and therefore no one guideline will work on all pitchers. I would really like to see the statistics of a 14u pitcher warming up and pitching 20 pitches in 7 games in 7 straight days...many experts are saying the stopping and starting so frequently is what is causing the problems.
Obviously 1 kid throwing 150+ pitches in one day does not sound like a smart plan...but I say get coaches a training seminar on when to recognize a tired arm, make it a pre-req to be a coach past 11u and THEN we might see some changes. These arbitrary numbers are not the way in my opinion.
Well, they didn't take 100 kids to track, they took 1000's of kids and tracked them over many years. There are no less than 37 medical studies on pitching and youth baseball cited by Pitch Smart (link). The Advisory Committee for Pitch Smart includes: Dr James Andrews, The Research Director for American Sports Medicine Institute, The Head Doctors for the Dodgers, Phillies, Yankees, Padres, Rockies & White Sox, the MLB Medical Director and several head MLB trainers.
So, I'm not sure what exactly is arbitrary in the recommendations. And while I don't disagree that every pitcher is different, I personally value this committee's research and recommendation over what my local school system provides as training on pitching mechanics to recognize fatigue, for a teacher that happens to coach the baseball team, that I have no control over.
Interestingly, I was informed of Pitch Smart by a Sr MLB Scout who I was talking to about how to protect over-pitching in High School. His response to me was, "If your son is over-pitched, there is enough research out now that it is nobody's fault but your own."
So my question is only related to how the guidelines are implemented. But if you think the guidelines are 'arbitrary', then you can take your chances with letting your coach decide what is more important, him keeping his job or protecting your son's health. I personally do not have the confidence in this method of protection.
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Edited by - CoachMark on 05/06/2015 23:22:16 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 09:32:28
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I applaud the fact that this team is trying to do something to protect kids arms...it is a very real problem and at least they are doing SOMETHING other than to say it's a problem and should be fixed...I will give them that. My issue is that since every kid is different the rules are not a guarantee of success in protecting an arm...it is a great starting point but the coaches themselves need to be certified to recognize arm issues.
It isn't just pitchers that have issues with their arms, what about catchers, what about shortstops...the TJ surgeries for them are on the rise and there are no standards in place for them at the youth or MLB level.
Rules and guidelines are a great start...but it also gives coaches a crutch or a scapegoat...well I followed the guidelines, sure I noticed he didn't have it that day, and it was cold, and his arm looked really tired by inning two but I stuck to the guidelines so I have no idea how he blew his arm out.
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 11:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I applaud the fact that this team is trying to do something to protect kids arms...it is a very real problem and at least they are doing SOMETHING other than to say it's a problem and should be fixed...I will give them that. My issue is that since every kid is different the rules are not a guarantee of success in protecting an arm...it is a great starting point but the coaches themselves need to be certified to recognize arm issues.
It isn't just pitchers that have issues with their arms, what about catchers, what about shortstops...the TJ surgeries for them are on the rise and there are no standards in place for them at the youth or MLB level.
Rules and guidelines are a great start...but it also gives coaches a crutch or a scapegoat...well I followed the guidelines, sure I noticed he didn't have it that day, and it was cold, and his arm looked really tired by inning two but I stuck to the guidelines so I have no idea how he blew his arm out.
From the website . . . pitching while fatigued is the VERY FIRST ONE listed. Excessive throwing while not pitching is another.
Pitching While Fatigued
Watch for signs of fatigue during a game, during a season, and over the whole year. The American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) found that adolescent pitchers who undergo elbow or shoulder surgery are 36 times more likely to have routinely pitched with arm fatigue.
Throwing Too Many Innings over the Course of the Year
ASMI found that players who pitched more than 100 innings in at least one year were 3.5 times more likely to be injured than those who did not exceed 100 innings pitched. Every inning -- whether it be during a game or showcase event -- should count toward that threshold.
Not Taking Enough Time off from Baseball Every Year
ASMI also found that pitchers who competed more than 8 months per year were 5 times as likely to suffer an injury requiring surgery. Pitchers should refrain from throwing for at least 2-3 months per year and avoid competitive pitching for at least 4 months per year.
Throwing Too Many Pitches and Not Getting Enough Rest
Daily, weekly and annual overuse is the greatest risk to a youth pitcher's health. Numerous studies have shown that pitchers who throw more pitches per game and those who do not adequately rest between appearances are at an elevated risk of injury. While medical research does not identify optimal pitch counts, pitch count programs have been shown to reduce the risk of shoulder injury in Little League Baseball by as much as 50% (Little League, 2011). The most important thing is to set limits for a pitcher and stick with them throughout the season.
Pitching on Consecutive Days
Pitchers should avoid pitching on consecutive days, if possible, irrespective of pitch count. According to Yang et al., pitchers who pitched on consecutive days had more than 2.5 times greater risk of experiencing arm pain, compared with pitchers who did not pitch on consecutive days.
Excessive Throwing When Not Pitching
A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team as it is the next most throwing-intensive position and results in far more throws than players at other positions. ASMI found that amateurs who played catcher while not pitching were 2.7 times more likely to suffer a major arm injury.
Playing for Multiple Teams at the Same Time
Players who participate on multiple teams at the same time are at an increased risk of injury as it makes it more difficult to monitor pitch limits and results in reduced rest.
Pitching With Injuries to Other Body Regions
Players should be cautious about returning to play after any injury. A sprained ankle or oblique strain can imperceptibly affect the player's biomechanics, changing the way he throws and putting more stress on his arm.
Not Following Proper Strength and Conditioning Routines
While often overlooked, any strength and conditioning program should include a shoulder and elbow component. Numerous studies have shown that deficits in upper extremity strength and mobility are strongly correlated to serious arm injuries.
Not Following Safe Practices While at Showcases
A showcase can be a terrific opportunity for young players to demonstrate their skills for college coaches and professional scouts. However, pitching in a showcase during the offseason can be particularly hazardous, as it is difficult to get back to healthy game condition and it is also makes it difficult to get sufficient offseason rest. Pitchers should treat these appearances as they would any other game for purposes of daily, weekly and annual pitch count limits. Furthermore, they should avoid the temptation to overthrow in an attempt to make a favorable impression.
Throwing Curveballs and Sliders at a Young Age
While existing research has not consistently shown a strong connection between the curveball and injuries, Yang et al., found that amateur pitchers who threw curveballs were 1.6 times more likely to experience arm pain while pitching and Lyman et al, found that youth pitchers who throw sliders are 86% more likely to experience elbow pain than those who do not (Lyman et al., 2002).
Radar Gun Use
While radar guns do not directly cause harm to a young pitcher, they can inspire pitchers to throw harder, oftentimes beyond their normal comfort level, in an attempt to impress others. This may create additional strain on the arm. |
Edited by - CoachMark on 05/07/2015 11:11:31 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 11:39:53
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Personally, I think something needs to be done and this is the best there is out there. The people involved in this have done a TON of work to research the factors that contribute to injury and this is what they have come up with. Is it perfect? No, but they will readily admit that there is no one size fits all. But, there is NOTHING that will be perfect. The reason is, every kid is different. They have different genetics, different muscle and tendon structure, different mechanics, different effort levels, different training techniques, etc... However, the pitch count limitations and recommendations made by Pitch Smart are, without doubt in my mind, a great start. I think they should be implemented across the board. Will they eliminate surgeries? Nope. Will they help? Very possibly. Will they hurt anyone? No, so why not do it.
I agree pitching while fatigued is probably a more important factor than individual pitch counts. However, doctors, pitching coaches and the whole medical and baseball community cannot quantify what the signs are and communicate them to the thousands of coaches out there. There is no checklist, it's more of an I'll know it when I see it situation.
Having something concrete will give something for coaches to go by and adhere to. Most organizations have inning limits now, which are pretty much useless. A kid can throw 7 innings with 10 pitches an inning for a total of 70 pitches. Another kid may throw 4 innings and throw 120 pitches. Who do you think is going to be worse off? Yet, pitcher #1 is done and pitcher #2 may have 3 more innings available to him.
I like it and think tournament organizations and HS associations should replace their current inning limitations with the pitch count recommendations provided by Pitch Smart. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 12:41:48
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| The guidelines presented are good. Are they perfect, no. I would equate them to speed limits. Some people will have accidents while driving above and below the limits. The accidents for the ones going over the limit are potentially much worse that the ones staying within the limits. If you get caught going over the limit then there should be a penalty. The other option is what we currently have (innings pitched which is not really a good indicator) or no limits. Whether intentional or not, without guidelines or rules kids are paying the penalty for the actions of adults. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 12:42:03
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I think these look great. My son is a primarily a catcher, but at 12/13/14, he was also pitching, as most boys do at that age. As a big kid he had more velocity than most. However, at 14 he had coaches who thought it was perfectly fine to take a kid that had caught 2-3 innings in the game and then put him on the mound. As the parent I said absolutely not. It may have been within the rules, but certainly not in my son's best interests. It may have cost him innings on the field, but it certainly saved him from likely injury from pitching with a tired arm.
Be the parent and step in if needed to protect the health of your child! Until all coaches wise up and make decisions that are best for the young player, these guidelines are needed and should be put in place. I think it is great all the research that was done, and I think if followed, we could see a decrease in surgeries needed at such young ages. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2015 : 13:49:07
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I can agree that pitching limits are FAR better than inning limits. The rec league my son belonged to when he was little had specific pitching limits, that took some getting use to. When he moved to triple crown the 6 inning rule didn't seem half as effective in protecting kids arms, and down right counter productive on occasion.
For example, team had a RHP on the mound that had clearly lost his stuff, coach brought in a LHP to finish the inning out...kid threw a pick off to first and that was out 3...he got charged an entire inning of pitching and never actually threw a pitch...something not exactly right there.
My point is...there are rules that make sense and rules that just seem to be there to make it look like they are trying to do something, without actually guaranteeing any real safety. |
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zwndad
170 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2015 : 13:22:48
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| All of these guidelines are great, but do they protect players from coaches who put a pitcher at shortstop, 3B or catcher when he comes off the mound? That's what drives me crazy. |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2015 : 14:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by zwndad
All of these guidelines are great, but do they protect players from coaches who put a pitcher at shortstop, 3B or catcher when he comes off the mound? That's what drives me crazy.
Excessive Throwing When Not Pitching
A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team as it is the next most throwing-intensive position and results in far more throws than players at other positions. ASMI found that amateurs who played catcher while not pitching were 2.7 times more likely to suffer a major arm injury. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2015 : 15:46:19
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This one gets ignored in this world of specialization. The real truth of the matter is to follow ALL these guidelines, roster would need to be expanded by quite a few players. Especially if you are planning on playing deep into tournaments.
Not Taking Enough Time off from Baseball Every Year
ASMI also found that pitchers who competed more than 8 months per year were 5 times as likely to suffer an injury requiring surgery. Pitchers should refrain from throwing for at least 2-3 months per year and avoid competitive pitching for at least 4 months per year.
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RamblinWreck93
41 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2015 : 08:52:55
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Great topic and a lot of good points by others. Here is my 2 cents. First, a disclaimer. I am not a baseball guru and I did not play college or pro ball. However, I am a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech, and a hell of an engineer ... I am an Industrial Engineer who is focused on improving business processes with my company. One thing that I know is that if I want to improve a process or solve a problem, I am going to follow the DMAIC process (Define, Measure, Analyze, Improve and Control), which is a data-driven improvement methodology used for improving, optimizing and stabilizing business processes and designs. While I don't know the details of the study used to establish the Pitch Smart guidelines, it appears that they have assembled an impressive panel of experts and had a large sample size. When trying to solve a problem, data tells you part of the story. You also need help from subject matter experts in order to make sure you are properly interpreting the results of your data analysis.
Here are my observations about travel ball. My daughter has played competitive travel softball for the past 6 years and she is currently on a 16U team. It is not uncommon for competitive softball teams to only carry 4 pitchers with the top 2 pitchers carrying the bulk of the load. Over a weekend tournament, a pitcher might pitch several games in the same day and many games over the course of the weekend. While overuse and injury can and does happen in softball, the "windmill" pitching motion appears to put less stress on the arm than the over head throwing in baseball (not to mention the older age pitchers throwing breaking balls and putting additional stress on their elbows). Therefore, softball seems to be a sport that is well suited for weekend tournaments with teams needing to carry only 4 to 5 pitchers.
My two sons (9U and 13U) are playing travel baseball for the first time this year. Also, I am coaching my son's 9U baseball team and I personally believe in tracking pitch counts and rest periods for the pitchers on my team. In my opinion, to be a successful "tournament" travel baseball team (and not abuse your pitchers), you need to have almost everyone on your roster able to pitch. Especially if you want to go deep in a tournament, I think it is wrong to ride only 4 or 5 pitchers. When I formed my 9U team, I wanted to limit my roster to 11 players and I am using 8 boys as pitchers in GGBL. I have played in 2 weekend tournaments so far this spring season and I have used 10 of my 11 players as pitchers. Since GGBL typically has 2 or 3 games a week, it is a lot easier to mange your pitchers. My team is having a very successful season in GGBL but we went 1-3 and 2-2 in our two tournaments. I believe my team is a high AA team that can be competitive with lower AAA teams. However, I lack depth of quality pitchers and thus struggle in weekend tournaments because if I pitch a boy and he throws 40 to 50 pitches on Saturday, he is done and won't pitch for me on Sunday (even though he has more "innings" available per tournament rules). My 9U team is a first year travel team and was really put together to be competitive in GGBL but I wanted the boys to get some experience playing in 4 to 5 tournaments even though I know we aren't built with the depth of pitching needed to be a serious tournament team.
I am personally glad that their are travel leagues out their like GGBL and the Lanier Baseball League. Especially for the younger age groups where you are not worried about showcase/exposure tournaments, I think it is great that these leagues exist. After all, how often do you see high school/college/pro baseball teams playing double headers let alone 6 games over a two day period?
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 08:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
This one gets ignored in this world of specialization. The real truth of the matter is to follow ALL these guidelines, roster would need to be expanded by quite a few players. Especially if you are planning on playing deep into tournaments.
Not Taking Enough Time off from Baseball Every Year
ASMI also found that pitchers who competed more than 8 months per year were 5 times as likely to suffer an injury requiring surgery. Pitchers should refrain from throwing for at least 2-3 months per year and avoid competitive pitching for at least 4 months per year.
Thank you hshuler...this is an important point and the razors edge that coaches have to deal with.
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball? |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 12:15:48
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Like it or not there has to be guidelines for pitching. Most organizations use "innings pitched" as their guideline, which in my opinion is a horrible way to protect the pitchers. For example, a pitcher could throw 100 pitches in 3 innings or 70 in 6 innings, so innings pitched is a terrible way to do it. The most logical way is pitch counts, yes the person doing Game Changer would have to really pay attention the whole game. You can't leave something this important in the coaches hands and for that matter the parents either.
Another aspect is having to play 4 games in one day, which is ridiculous even if you have the pitching. Tournament organizers should align the brackets to allow for no more than 3 games in one day, even if that means fewer teams making it to the upper bracket. Most teams, especially younger teams, don't carry pitchers only, so not only are these kids pitching, they are also playing multiple positions prior to and after pitching.
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 13:51:35
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| We just expanded our 13U roster to 14 (from 13) as we approach our end of the year/larger tournaments. We have a couple of arm issues and it puts too much pressure on the other kids because we are usually playing late on Sundays. Most of the kids have to sit a half or whole game every three or four games. It's not ideal for every parent/kid but it's without question what's best for the team. |
Edited by - hshuler on 05/11/2015 14:45:44 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 14:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 17:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
My vote for post of the year! |
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LittleDawg
91 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 21:18:33
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THIS IS AWESOME -- Well said @bballman
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2015 : 22:29:39
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| While the parent issue will always be a problem, it's not the main problem. The main problem, in my opinion, is the premise "win at all costs". This falls on the parents, but mostly this is on the coaches because ultimately they are making the decisions on the field. As a coach, can you pull your starting pitcher when it's obvious he's getting tired, but your in a close game and if you pull him you may lose? If your answer is, "Leave him in", then you've failed as a coach even though you may win the game. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 09:11:03
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't understand how a coach accomplishes this.
We hear time and time again that at 9 every kid should bat and every kid should play because it's all for fun, people are not suppose to take baseball "serious" at 9, we should let kids be kids...but the way the tourneys are set up most are two day, 2 pool play games then bracket play it is win or go home. Can a 10 roster team handle 3 games, yes! Could their pitchers arms handle 5 games, no, not at all. But only 2 teams get to the 5th game...so what is a coach to do carry for 15 kids on the off chance they get to that 5th game, or carry 10 kids and hope they don't get to the 5th game.
Tough decision for a coach. While I 100% agree that at 13/14u and up sitting is part of baseball, I don't agree that at 9u spending half your time on a bunch really fosters a love of the game. Should rosters of less than 12 kids be banned from 2 day tourneys? Should there be maybe a special division of 6u-12u, with special rules? I don't have an answer, but I am sure glad I am not a coach of a 9u team. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 10:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
I'm stealing this!!! VERY well stated, and it needs to be part of EVERY coach's handout to parents in the fall/spring.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Tough decision for a coach. While I 100% agree that at 13/14u and up sitting is part of baseball, I don't agree that at 9u spending half your time on a bunch really fosters a love of the game. Should rosters of less than 12 kids be banned from 2 day tourneys? Should there be maybe a special division of 6u-12u, with special rules? I don't have an answer, but I am sure glad I am not a coach of a 9u team.
As bballman stated, sitting a FEW innings per tournament... Not a "bunch"... What is a "bunch"? And there is a difference between sitting your RF or sitting your SS (who's your #1 pitcher and #3 catcher). SS needs to sit- maybe not as much as the RF, but still needs to sit. Carry more players, and a good coach, who's focused on DEVELOPMENT will rotate and alternate kids around. Maybe EVERY kid will sit a total of 3 innings over 5 games played, and you still have fresh, NOT OVER USED arms.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 10:47:36
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My opinion is that 9u is WAY too early for teams to be playing travel (tournament) ball. Particularly any kind of extended tournament. I know I will get a lot of grief, but that's what I think. Yes, baseball is supposed to be fun. Tournaments are not set up for "fun" baseball. They are set up to win every weekend. If these kids were in a rec league, or even a travel league like the GGBL or what NWBA used to be, it would be much more conducive to being able to play with 10 kids and have fun. But if a coach is going to enter tournaments where 5+ games on a weekend are played, then they need to carry a bigger roster.
It's not a dilemma CaC03Girl. It's a choice. I am absolutely against a coach that chooses to put his young player's arms in jeopardy just so they all can say they play "travel ball". 7, 8, 9, 10 - even 11 is a too young to be playing such an extensive schedule with such small rosters.
Like I said, you have a choice. Play with more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments in which you are going to jeopardize the health of your players. It's that simple. |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 11:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
At 9u you usually have 10 kids, but you have 30 innings to cover with pitching in a 5 game 2 day tourney, which is typical. How do you do that? If you pitch a kid 2 innings, at what could be a 18+ pitches an inning they are suppose to rest for at least two days...that could mean if you have all 10 kids pitch 2 innings you are 10 innings short of what you need to win the tourney.
What is a coach to do? Does he put entire games or 4+ innings per kid at the 9u level? Or does he have to carry 15 kids and have 6 kids sit per inning? Or are we really having to go to the PO world at age 9?
Where is the line of protecting kids arms, and allowing kids to have fun while playing the GAME of baseball?
What is a coach to do? Either get more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments where he is going to abuse a kid's arm. It's that plain and simple. Maybe back when kids played in leagues, you could get away with 10 players. With the way travel ball is now, with travel teams starting to play at younger and younger ages, you just can't carry a 10 player roster. You can't do it and keep your players healthy for the long run. Maybe this is why there have been so many TJ and shoulder surgeries over the last however many years. It is impossible to do the right thing in terms of player health AND compete in these weekend tournaments with a small roster.
Coaches need to increase their roster. They need to man up and let parents know that their kid (every kid on the team) will not be playing every inning of every game. Coaches keep a small roster because they don't want to deal with parents complaining that their kid is not getting enough play time. But they are doing this at the expense of the kid's long term health. It may not show up this season, or next season or even over the next 5 seasons, but it will eventually.
Sitting on the bench for a few innings every game or every tournament is part of baseball. If the coach deals with it appropriately, it is not an issue. You can't have everything. You can't have the kids health as a priority AND have a tiny roster. We just can't take the chance of these young ballplayers getting hurt just because a coach doesn't want to deal with whiny parents who want THEIR kid in every inning of every game. And to be honest with you, it's the parents as well. Parents need to not be so demanding that they don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around just their kid. Why can't parents be able to realize that this is a TEAM. And as part of a TEAM, their kid will have to sit some. That's baseball. That's what's necessary to keep our kids healthy.
Man up coach and do what is best for the ballplayer's health.
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't understand how a coach accomplishes this.
We hear time and time again that at 9 every kid should bat and every kid should play because it's all for fun, people are not suppose to take baseball "serious" at 9, we should let kids be kids...but the way the tourneys are set up most are two day, 2 pool play games then bracket play it is win or go home. Can a 10 roster team handle 3 games, yes! Could their pitchers arms handle 5 games, no, not at all. But only 2 teams get to the 5th game...so what is a coach to do carry for 15 kids on the off chance they get to that 5th game, or carry 10 kids and hope they don't get to the 5th game.
Tough decision for a coach. While I 100% agree that at 13/14u and up sitting is part of baseball, I don't agree that at 9u spending half your time on a bunch really fosters a love of the game. Should rosters of less than 12 kids be banned from 2 day tourneys? Should there be maybe a special division of 6u-12u, with special rules? I don't have an answer, but I am sure glad I am not a coach of a 9u team.
As long as the coach is spreading the sitting around evenly among the 12 kids, it shouldn't be a problem. And, as bballman says, it teaches that sitting is a part of baseball. It only becomes a problem at the younger ages (12U and lower) when some kids do most of the sitting. That baseball lesson -- that the ones who aren't playing as well are the ones who do the sitting -- can wait until after 12U. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 11:51:26
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| I think the other issue at hand at the younger ages is the drive to play a tournament every weekend. Perhaps part of the solution is to reduce the number of tournaments and play more single games throughout the week. This both gives players more opportunity for development, and more rest for pitchers as the games are not compacted into 2 days. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2015 : 14:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My opinion is that 9u is WAY too early for teams to be playing travel (tournament) ball. Particularly any kind of extended tournament. I know I will get a lot of grief, but that's what I think. Yes, baseball is supposed to be fun. Tournaments are not set up for "fun" baseball. They are set up to win every weekend. If these kids were in a rec league, or even a travel league like the GGBL or what NWBA used to be, it would be much more conducive to being able to play with 10 kids and have fun. But if a coach is going to enter tournaments where 5+ games on a weekend are played, then they need to carry a bigger roster.
It's not a dilemma CaC03Girl. It's a choice. I am absolutely against a coach that chooses to put his young player's arms in jeopardy just so they all can say they play "travel ball". 7, 8, 9, 10 - even 11 is a too young to be playing such an extensive schedule with such small rosters.
Like I said, you have a choice. Play with more kids on the roster, or don't enter tournaments in which you are going to jeopardize the health of your players. It's that simple.
To be clear, I do agree with you bballman, I'm just putting myself in a coaches shoes, specifically a 9u-12u coaches shoes. There seems to be two choices in this area for that age group, you can play rec ball in the fall for 6 weeks and the Spring for 8 weeks, with a possible All-star group for summer. Or there is travel ball. I agree that travel ball looks like it was intended for 14u and up, but anyone can play rec ball, including the 9 year old who has never picked up a glove in his life.
Rec ball isn't what my kid wanted anymore, he wanted more baseball with people who could catch and hit on a more consistent basis so he could play with and against better competition. But where is the middle league? I feel like rec ball was about second grade stuff, and travel ball is about 9th grade stuff...where is the middle? Whether the team is a Major team or a AA team...where is the middle where kids get to play baseball and not sit the bench but not throw too many pitches to hurt themselves. |
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Pitching Guidelines
