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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/22/2018 : 15:29:12
I see a lot of teams talk about development a lot, but the reality is they are looking for the best players they can find, so there is no development. None of these teams are willing to take the time and work it requires to develop a player. If that was the case there would be no need to try outs. Too many are trying to build super-studded teams at youth to feed their and parents egos.
This false narrative of development has turn so many away from playing the sport. Just look at how many teams are looking for players. A good coach should not have a problem in turning a not so good player who has the hustle and will into a stud. If they can't do that, they are not good coaches. Just liers. PERIOD. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 02/02/2018 : 19:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Yeah, concerning the EC Astros and development of players, this may be the only thing most of this forums' readers would agree on....The Astros are not looking for players that need developing.
When a player starts standing out they will probably come calling, but not until then.
Yep. Pretty much the same scenario for all nationally ranked organizations that pump out rosters of nothing but D1 commits at 15 and up. They are showcasing and coaching the best "ready to go" talent out there and winning while they are at it. Development is more like tweaking at that point. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/01/2018 : 11:13:51
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Yeah, concerning the EC Astros and development of players, this may be the only thing most of this forums' readers would agree on....The Astros are not looking for players that need developing.
When a player starts standing out they will probably come calling, but not until then.
Can't disagree with you there. They got 11yo's that are shaving. A lot of organizations have adopted the same format. |
| 743 |
Posted - 02/01/2018 : 10:30:06
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Another example of the flawed "EYE TEST":
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754648-top-qb-recruit-justin-fields-cant-wait-to-compete-with-jake-fromm-at-georgia?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
This kid was a stud baseball player from 12U up, Astros just dropped the ball on this kid. Wasn't he held back a year in school? I talked to a baseball scout the other day who remembers looking at him when he was 15 or 16 for baseball and said he even spoke to his mom during the game. Kid might get drafted for baseball this year, I assume he will play with his HS team but not sure how football or UGA works into that. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 02/01/2018 : 10:03:59
Yeah, concerning the EC Astros and development of players, this may be the only thing most of this forums' readers would agree on....The Astros are not looking for players that need developing.
When a player starts standing out they will probably come calling, but not until then. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 02/01/2018 : 07:36:48
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Another example of the flawed "EYE TEST":
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754648-top-qb-recruit-justin-fields-cant-wait-to-compete-with-jake-fromm-at-georgia?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
Excerpt from article:
"he got cut from the prestigious baseball team, the East Cobb Astros, as a 13-year-old trying out for the 14-under team. He simply didn't pass the eye test. "I'm not getting cut from another team," he told his dad. "I'm not going through that embarrassment again."
I'm sorry but REALLY? He was trying to play UP on one of the most sought after Major level teams in the nation, and admits he doesn't love baseball, which is why he is pursuing Football.
The reporter that wrote the article can speculate all they like but every baseball parent on here will know why he didn't make the team, and it wasn't "the eye test". Especially since he was 5'9 and 175#'s...that WOULD have passed the eye test.
|
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/31/2018 : 13:06:04
Another example of the flawed "EYE TEST":
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754648-top-qb-recruit-justin-fields-cant-wait-to-compete-with-jake-fromm-at-georgia?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial |
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 14:15:03
quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar
That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end.
Very true. |
| Critical Mass |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 14:01:05
Nick Madrigal |
| BusterO |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 13:34:08
quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar
That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end.
Amen... |
| SuperStar |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 11:31:05
That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 10:02:55
At 10U it may be the exception more than the rule but my son who was smaller most definitely could make the throws, no bounce required. As far as pitching he didn't throw fast, but he threw slow, loopy STRIKES, something a lot of the "fast" pitchers couldn't do, thus striking out many a slugger. Not much has changed as we have progressed over the years. I think the OVERALL point is each player should be treated and looked at as an individual, and no one should be crossed off the list based on the eye test alone. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 09:02:05
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
This statement is what confuses me. Punisher made it sound like the coach should take the kid with potential, rather than the kid that is more advanced right now. I don's see how that works out for the coaches.
Punisher also said above that he was just as good if not better than the bigger kids. If that is the case then I don't see a problem in picking the smaller kid. However, my experience at 10u was that only the bigger kids could get the throw across the diamond without a bounce to 1st. Only the bigger kids could pitch with any kind of speed. And by the time 12u rolled around the coaches all wanted the athletic kid over the "bigger" kid. I don't see many overweight kids on true Majors teams. So perhaps this is a problem that fixes itself over time? |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 01/27/2018 : 11:41:18
Yep, agree semipro, I have even seen catchers that size who have surprised us all. The little guys who are true ballers have a certain grit and scrappiness required to keep up with those bigger kids, and they also tend to have agility and speed that larger kids have trouble matching. After all that's why it's a TEAM sport, the best teams have a mix of players, each with something out of the ordinary to offer, not just a team of identical looking robots. |
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 23:16:25
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers.
You are absolutely correct. Bigger does not equal better. People don't realize it until it happens to their kid who was once the big kid and did not grow anymore.
At the current and growing trend the next thing you know, kids will have to be 6'5" to pass the EYE TEST of a sub 5ft coach. So everyone is or who will be below 6'5" should quit now cause they will not pass the eye test?
As a Dad of an extremely SMALL player, I love it when they keep under estimating my kid. Keep motivating and driving him to be better, nothing better than someone telling you, that you cannot do something. I'll take the small, dedicated feisty kid EVERY DAY over the Big Stud that doesn't work hard.
At 12U I have NO idea of what will pan out down the road, but the last 6 years with my kid being extremely undersized (12U size of 10U kid), he's held his own with some kids 15 inches and 50 to 100 lbs bigger than him. Kid is 12 yo, 4' 9" and 86 lbs but plays like a big boy and has put a few over the fence as well. Hard Work matters not size, yeah at some point it may catch up to him, but maybe not... My message to my son and others is keep working hard, keep grinding, it's not how tall or how much you weigh, but how much you want it ad LOVE the game. Don't let ANYONE tell you, you are not tall, big or good enough, prove them wrong.
Yes Coaches are short sided, but just prove your worth and keep grinding at the end of the day they want to win as much as anyone else, they just have to see their best option may not be in that BIG package.
Hey it is what it is, but again if I were coaching I'd take a team of 12 small feisty kids any day, win or lose I know those kids will give me 110% and then some. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 17:51:06
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers.
You are absolutely correct. Bigger does not equal better. People don't realize it until it happens to their kid who was once the big kid and did not grow anymore.
At the current and growing trend the next thing you know, kids will have to be 6'5" to pass the EYE TEST of a sub 5ft coach. So everyone is or who will be below 6'5" should quit now cause they will not pass the eye test? |
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 15:27:00
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
You may as well have said the sky is blue so my favorite food is eggplant.
What the heck does picking the bigger kid have to do with there being no development?
In this Atlanta area kids only sometimes stay on the same team for more than a year and rarely two. Why? It's called development. They are either getting it, in which case they need to move onto a better team, or they aren't getting it in which case they need to move on to another team.
A coach has to plan year by year, he doesn't have any guarantee that next year he will have the same group of kids. Two kids are trying out you go with the kid who is a 6/10 now and hope the coach can make him into an 8/10 for the season. You don't pick the 2/10 kid and say I'm going to make him an 8/10, and overlook the 6/10 kid.
So now coaches picking the better player in the beginning of the season shows there is no development? HUH? He's suppose to hope and cross his fingers that he can break the worse kid of his bad habits and instill better habits into him, and hope he listens and turns into a better player than the kid he passed on previously? HUH?
Not quite 14" but it was close. Made it to 6'6" while the bigger kids before stayed dwarfs.
Most coaches are not picking the better player, they are picking the bigger player in hopes he is the better player.
The coach is supposed to develop players in the early years. Studs are created, they just don't pop out of the womb as some would think. They want instant success and refuse to put in the work.
It's easy to assemble a team of studs and win, but when you create a team of studs and beat that assembled team is when you can really take credit. The assembled team coach is a fraud and probably not a good coach to begin with. Good coaches create studs. Bad coaches assemble studs to make up for their weak coaching. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 14:28:04
I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 13:13:03
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
You may as well have said the sky is blue so my favorite food is eggplant.
What the heck does picking the bigger kid have to do with there being no development?
In this Atlanta area kids only sometimes stay on the same team for more than a year and rarely two. Why? It's called development. They are either getting it, in which case they need to move onto a better team, or they aren't getting it in which case they need to move on to another team.
A coach has to plan year by year, he doesn't have any guarantee that next year he will have the same group of kids. Two kids are trying out you go with the kid who is a 6/10 now and hope the coach can make him into an 8/10 for the season. You don't pick the 2/10 kid and say I'm going to make him an 8/10, and overlook the 6/10 kid.
So now coaches picking the better player in the beginning of the season shows there is no development? HUH? He's suppose to hope and cross his fingers that he can break the worse kid of his bad habits and instill better habits into him, and hope he listens and turns into a better player than the kid he passed on previously? HUH? |
| SuperStar |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
14" in one summer is Guinness world record material. I bet everyone thought, who is this dude and what have you done with our little "punisher"! LOL!  |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:30:25
743, you are very right on the recruiting landscape these days. Recruiters are recruiting up the middle. C, P, SS, CF....all other positions on their roster seems to be played by guys who use to be C, P, SS, CF. There are rare exceptions for the kid who hits bombs over the fence repeatedly, but if you pull up a college roster of who is actually playing most of the games, then compare that to what position they played on their travel ball team, I think you will repeatedly see P, C, SS, CF.
|
| Punishers |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:26:34
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now. |
| SuperStar |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:05:49
I think for the most part, folks are not knocking the smaller players and can definitely be proud of the ones who achieve success. No one can argue the fact that there has been many stud baseball players at the major level that have already been mentioned above. With that being said, it is harder for a smaller player to make it. That is all it boils down to. Yes, not all coaches are alike, and some are bad and good, but when it comes down to it, teams will choose the bigger players over the smaller ones. It doesn't make it right choosing size over skill, but it is the society we live in. You know the old term.,, "bigger is better", that's what the majority live by. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 09:23:36
Also, agree maybe will move to 3 or 2, but pretty sure no HS SS would be too disappointed if he ended up in either of those spots in D1 or the MLB. The point would be he made it. Pros are moved all the time. The point is to be allowed to MAKE it, big or small, based on skill set and numbers alone. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 09:13:34
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring. |
| 743 |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 08:09:53
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Why so much anger about little guys having some success? Is this not ok?? Why is it a big vs little argument any way? Shouldn't it be skill set vs skill set? Baseball is the only of the big 3 where size really doesn't matter. Should all the little guys pack up their gear and go home, regardless of what they can do, because the "odds" are against them? Just get out of the way of the "stronger" kids. Forget if the arm strength of this Nunez kid dwarfs that of the BIG kid, he's SMALL! He's destined for failure or to play second fiddle to the BIG kid. Jeesh, so much negativity and dream crushing! I have never seen a smaller player be discouraged by a coach, at least on the teams we've been on, only by other parents.
As I have stated in all my posts I am pulling for this player but the chances of him staying at SS are not great compared to moving to 2B or 3B or OF. Lets be honest most colleges don't recruit 3B they take SS that were outstanding in HS and turn them into 3B. They take other SS and turn them into 2B. I am just stating facts. I love the small guys that play in the MLB and NBA or NFL! I am not saying anything negative about this kid, more about how coaches recruit, this kid has all the tools he needs, speed and arm strength and that always outweighs size unless there is another SS with better numbers then it comes down to consistency. |
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