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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/06/2018 : 11:16:36
There seems to be a growing trend with teams 12u an below using pickup players over team players. Any thoughts? I know mines. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| turntwo |
Posted - 02/12/2018 : 16:03:58
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
...I'm just pointing out that it can set up pay to play situations (or the appearance of them when they don't actually exist). And, I wasn't really thinking of the larger, well-known organizations, even though I think it is possible for pay to play to happen there, too. The situations I'm aware of were at newer, two or three man operations that were trying to grow into bigger organizations...
You have to think, what better business model than an instructor who also has a team... How would a business run if someone pays you for results, you slowly get improvement with the continued sales pitch of "just a few more lessons, and he'll be there-- he's a STUD already, but I can make him a super-STUD", (or the comments about his current coach-- "Really? He isn't the ace pitcher, 3-hole hitter, and primary SS? Your coach must be crazy!!!")only when it comes time to make your team you cut him because he isn't good enough... Isn't that hypocritical of what you sold the parents on this whole time to continue your income? How good he is, how great you are in developing him? You have to keep the ruse up, to keep the income flow-- even if he's not up to par as the rest of the team.
OR, maybe I'm missing something. I've seen this in big and small/newer orgs alike. Kids of average ability start getting lessons from 'xyz' in March/April, and then end up on 'xyz's' team the next year, that's full of otherwise stud players. |
| SuperStar |
Posted - 02/12/2018 : 14:40:57
quote:
Originally posted by tellit
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
quote:
IMO its ok to take lessons from someone in your organization, but it should NOT be your individual coach. Not only does that often produce pay to play situations, but it also provides perfect opportunities for those "private" little chats you may not be able to have otherwise.
I'm not passing judgment on families who pay their son's coach for private lessons (although we've never done it), I'm just pointing out that it can set up pay to play situations (or the appearance of them when they don't actually exist). And, I wasn't really thinking of the larger, well-known organizations, even though I think it is possible for pay to play to happen there, too. The situations I'm aware of were at newer, two or three man operations that were trying to grow into bigger organizations. If you're looking at an organization like that and the coaches don't seem to have any other sources of income, be careful. Ask around. Look at past rosters. Do some homework with past team members. The list of people working in travel ball in Georgia who can pay the bills that way is very short.
Dilly Dilly.
What does Dilly Dilly mean? Is this some form of private code for going to the Dairy Queen afterwards? LOl!
All kidding aside, Newbie BB Mom has a point. This definitely does exist. But, it's kind of hidden in real life. You know the same way the "Code Red" was hidden in the movie A Few Good Men. You couldn't trace it on paper, but it was real. |
| tellit |
Posted - 02/12/2018 : 11:30:46
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
quote:
IMO its ok to take lessons from someone in your organization, but it should NOT be your individual coach. Not only does that often produce pay to play situations, but it also provides perfect opportunities for those "private" little chats you may not be able to have otherwise.
I'm not passing judgment on families who pay their son's coach for private lessons (although we've never done it), I'm just pointing out that it can set up pay to play situations (or the appearance of them when they don't actually exist). And, I wasn't really thinking of the larger, well-known organizations, even though I think it is possible for pay to play to happen there, too. The situations I'm aware of were at newer, two or three man operations that were trying to grow into bigger organizations. If you're looking at an organization like that and the coaches don't seem to have any other sources of income, be careful. Ask around. Look at past rosters. Do some homework with past team members. The list of people working in travel ball in Georgia who can pay the bills that way is very short.
Dilly Dilly. |
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 02/10/2018 : 09:42:04
quote:
IMO its ok to take lessons from someone in your organization, but it should NOT be your individual coach. Not only does that often produce pay to play situations, but it also provides perfect opportunities for those "private" little chats you may not be able to have otherwise.
I'm not passing judgment on families who pay their son's coach for private lessons (although we've never done it), I'm just pointing out that it can set up pay to play situations (or the appearance of them when they don't actually exist). And, I wasn't really thinking of the larger, well-known organizations, even though I think it is possible for pay to play to happen there, too. The situations I'm aware of were at newer, two or three man operations that were trying to grow into bigger organizations. If you're looking at an organization like that and the coaches don't seem to have any other sources of income, be careful. Ask around. Look at past rosters. Do some homework with past team members. The list of people working in travel ball in Georgia who can pay the bills that way is very short. |
| Harry.Doyle |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 11:32:13
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Harry.Doyle
Our family is relatively new to the travel ball scene, so I appreciate the discussion here.
But we were talked into my son being a pickup player last fall for an 'injuried' kid on a team. Needless to say the 'injuried' kid never sat and my son played every inning except for 1. I felt dirty and said then we would never be a pickup player or play for a team that would do that. When spring rolled around and that team invited my son for a tryout, we politely declined.
I wish the adults would act with a bit more integrity and set positive examples for our young men to follow.
You meant the injured kid sat? Correct?
Nope, the 'injured' kid never sat, but the other kids on the team. I'm thinking they didn't have an injury and was using that story to garner sympathy. Of course the injured kid was one of the coaches kids, so go figure. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 11:23:57
I would say that close to 100% of coaches give lessons; especially, in an organization and if the head coach doesn't, then another coach in the organization does. With out a doubt, this can and probably does lead to playing time. Some kids get 2 to 3 lessons a week and that's $100 to $150 a week for the coach/organization. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 11:13:17
This actually does happen! I was amazed when I started hearing about it. When you see paid coaches who also offer lessons outside of the team, be wary. This can often be a pay to play situation, especially if the coaches don't seem to have a solid day job to support themselves.
[/quote]
IMO its ok to take lessons from someone in your organization, but it should NOT be your individual coach. Not only does that often produce pay to play situations, but it also provides perfect opportunities for those "private" little chats you may not be able to have otherwise. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 10:59:23
quote:
Originally posted by Harry.Doyle
Our family is relatively new to the travel ball scene, so I appreciate the discussion here.
But we were talked into my son being a pickup player last fall for an 'injuried' kid on a team. Needless to say the 'injuried' kid never sat and my son played every inning except for 1. I felt dirty and said then we would never be a pickup player or play for a team that would do that. When spring rolled around and that team invited my son for a tryout, we politely declined.
I wish the adults would act with a bit more integrity and set positive examples for our young men to follow.
You meant the injured kid sat? Correct? |
| Harry.Doyle |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 09:09:39
Our family is relatively new to the travel ball scene, so I appreciate the discussion here.
But we were talked into my son being a pickup player last fall for an 'injuried' kid on a team. Needless to say the 'injuried' kid never sat and my son played every inning except for 1. I felt dirty and said then we would never be a pickup player or play for a team that would do that. When spring rolled around and that team invited my son for a tryout, we politely declined.
I wish the adults would act with a bit more integrity and set positive examples for our young men to follow. |
| Newbie BB Mom |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 08:42:14
quote:
Or out and out payments, or the always popular hundreds or thousands of dollars spent on 'lessons' with the coach to better their playing time. It's comical.
This actually does happen! I was amazed when I started hearing about it. When you see paid coaches who also offer lessons outside of the team, be wary. This can often be a pay to play situation, especially if the coaches don't seem to have a solid day job to support themselves. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 13:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
No guarantee that paid coaches equal unbiased coaching either. The world of behind the scenes deals and goodies for the coaches is alive and well there too.
Truer words have never been spoken!!!! "Cookies for coach", or brownies every Sunday! Or out and out payments, or the always popular hundreds or thousands of dollars spent on 'lessons' with the coach to better their playing time. It's comical.
Seen that before. Kid had no business on the team let alone in any field position. All because dad was stupid enough to cut the check for useless training and kid is still the same years later while everyone else has passed him. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 10:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
No guarantee that paid coaches equal unbiased coaching either. The world of behind the scenes deals and goodies for the coaches is alive and well there too.
Truer words have never been spoken!!!! "Cookies for coach", or brownies every Sunday! Or out and out payments, or the always popular hundreds or thousands of dollars spent on 'lessons' with the coach to better their playing time. It's comical. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 08:48:02
No guarantee that paid coaches equal unbiased coaching either. The world of behind the scenes deals and goodies for the coaches is alive and well there too. That said there are several organizations out there that, across the board, and with all skill levels really do walk the walk. Just a matter of seeking them out, and doing the research. And asking families on those teams! |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 20:12:22
quote:
Originally posted by tellit
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Around_the_Horn
Pickup players can be a negative or a positive. The best way for a team to handle the situation is for there to be an open and frank conversation about guest players. We have seen it work out well most times.
But there was once where it was a complete cluster [luckily I can look back and laugh now]. It was at an end of the year "world series". We show up to the first game and there are kids and parents that the core team had never seen before. Start of the first game, one of these new players is on the mound and gets rocked!! Not, like chisel rocked. Not, like drill hammer rocked. But like, multiple cases of TNT rocked!!! To make it worse the dad keeps yelling, "You're doing great Jonhnny, you just keep throwing it right down the middle." It was the worst beating our team had ever been a part of. We had beat this same team many times, but we had become AA team overnight due to these "guest players". Parents stopped sitting with each other, and by the end of the tournament, I could not name a single kid playing the infield. It was also not one of those situations where no one else knew what was going on. Every team at the tournament could tell because it was open rebellion. It was a disaster. But it was quite the show. I should have sold tickets.
I know I would have bought one of those tickets to see that show. LOL.
I believe that is called tryouts for next year. Come play with the team this weekend, see how you fit in....etc.
No better way for a coach to really know what kind of player they are looking at, and at the same time annoy his players and their parents. I can see why more and more coaches are paid coaches.
It could be done without annoying players and their parents if they are short and not batting ahead of roster players. Who knows what back door deals the coach is making with the parents?
I can see more non-paid coach teams adding pickups and pissing off parents, but not many true paid coach teams. The parents of the pickup would have to wonder, if they do their own rosters players like this, how will they treat mines.
Then again, these are the same coaches that loose it when their kid is sitting for a pickup player. |
| tellit |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 17:17:07
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Around_the_Horn
Pickup players can be a negative or a positive. The best way for a team to handle the situation is for there to be an open and frank conversation about guest players. We have seen it work out well most times.
But there was once where it was a complete cluster [luckily I can look back and laugh now]. It was at an end of the year "world series". We show up to the first game and there are kids and parents that the core team had never seen before. Start of the first game, one of these new players is on the mound and gets rocked!! Not, like chisel rocked. Not, like drill hammer rocked. But like, multiple cases of TNT rocked!!! To make it worse the dad keeps yelling, "You're doing great Jonhnny, you just keep throwing it right down the middle." It was the worst beating our team had ever been a part of. We had beat this same team many times, but we had become AA team overnight due to these "guest players". Parents stopped sitting with each other, and by the end of the tournament, I could not name a single kid playing the infield. It was also not one of those situations where no one else knew what was going on. Every team at the tournament could tell because it was open rebellion. It was a disaster. But it was quite the show. I should have sold tickets.
I know I would have bought one of those tickets to see that show. LOL.
I believe that is called tryouts for next year. Come play with the team this weekend, see how you fit in....etc.
No better way for a coach to really know what kind of player they are looking at, and at the same time annoy his players and their parents. I can see why more and more coaches are paid coaches. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 15:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Around_the_Horn
Pickup players can be a negative or a positive. The best way for a team to handle the situation is for there to be an open and frank conversation about guest players. We have seen it work out well most times.
But there was once where it was a complete cluster [luckily I can look back and laugh now]. It was at an end of the year "world series". We show up to the first game and there are kids and parents that the core team had never seen before. Start of the first game, one of these new players is on the mound and gets rocked!! Not, like chisel rocked. Not, like drill hammer rocked. But like, multiple cases of TNT rocked!!! To make it worse the dad keeps yelling, "You're doing great Jonhnny, you just keep throwing it right down the middle." It was the worst beating our team had ever been a part of. We had beat this same team many times, but we had become AA team overnight due to these "guest players". Parents stopped sitting with each other, and by the end of the tournament, I could not name a single kid playing the infield. It was also not one of those situations where no one else knew what was going on. Every team at the tournament could tell because it was open rebellion. It was a disaster. But it was quite the show. I should have sold tickets.
I know I would have bought one of those tickets to see that show. LOL.
I believe that is called tryouts for next year. Come play with the team this weekend, see how you fit in....etc. |
| SuperStar |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 14:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by Candler7
I don't know how it will work, but I'm all for TC or someone making an objective decision in the team's level. That's a big problem, both parents and coaches having an overinflated view of the talent level of their team. Like someone said, soooo many teams in metro and yea many have a few major level kids on the team. They also have some AA level kids on the team. But they play or think they should play D1/Major and also try to recruit (usually unsuccessfully) major talent. And that is why they look for pickup players, to compete at a level they probably shouldn't be playing. There are relatively few true Major teams top to bottom around here. I just think if teams played at their true level, it would probably be a better experience all around. But advertising "High AA/Low AAA team seeks players" doesn't "sell" like advertising "Major team seeks players", LOL.
Yes, there are many teams and many players. It is hard to please everyone and it's hard to be on a true majors team from top to bottom. But, that doesn't mean folks are not going to try. The baseball world is very similar to the new car dealership world. Everyone wants the best looking ride around town with the lowest payments possible! |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 14:51:49
quote:
Originally posted by ofs13
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Just saw that. That's usually why teams get pickup players anyway. Not enough pitching depth. I don't think pickup players should bat above team players either. I just see so many things going wrong with that.
Your question is a good one, and the answer probably is different from team to team; however, w/ the younger age groups & parents paying the freight, it's probably hard to justify bringing in pick up players.
While I acknowledge this is usually not the case, I could see a scenario where a coach could tell the families that they were going to go with a smaller roster for the season, but would pick up players (arms/bats) for certain big tournaments where they wanted to push for a title. If that were the scenario, and everyone knows going in, then I have no problem and would bat the pick up kids in the appropriate spot in the order too. But, they would also see innings on the bench, just like the full-time roster kids.
If you're going to be short-handed due to injury or illness or maybe mom & dad decided a family vacation was more important this week, yes.
If you're taking a look at kid, b/c you have an open roster spot yes, but not the same kid every tournament.
If the coach just decides that he doesn't like the make up of his roster, so he's going to pick up players and sit the ones paying the bills, then no.
This has usually been the case with teams my son has either played on or tried out for. He ended up on his current team via picking up one weekend and the coach used it as a tryout. However, one coach of a previous team picked up two players for a tourney. He started on on the mound. That kid not only got shelled on the mound but went 0-fer at the plate while leading off. Needless to say, there were several pissed parents of players who sat because of the kid. I won't be hypocritical and speak out against all pickup players since it also helped my son as well. Each situation is different. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 14:30:44
quote:
Originally posted by Around_the_Horn
Pickup players can be a negative or a positive. The best way for a team to handle the situation is for there to be an open and frank conversation about guest players. We have seen it work out well most times.
But there was once where it was a complete cluster [luckily I can look back and laugh now]. It was at an end of the year "world series". We show up to the first game and there are kids and parents that the core team had never seen before. Start of the first game, one of these new players is on the mound and gets rocked!! Not, like chisel rocked. Not, like drill hammer rocked. But like, multiple cases of TNT rocked!!! To make it worse the dad keeps yelling, "You're doing great Jonhnny, you just keep throwing it right down the middle." It was the worst beating our team had ever been a part of. We had beat this same team many times, but we had become AA team overnight due to these "guest players". Parents stopped sitting with each other, and by the end of the tournament, I could not name a single kid playing the infield. It was also not one of those situations where no one else knew what was going on. Every team at the tournament could tell because it was open rebellion. It was a disaster. But it was quite the show. I should have sold tickets.
I know I would have bought one of those tickets to see that show. LOL. |
| Around_the_Horn |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 12:50:27
Pickup players can be a negative or a positive. The best way for a team to handle the situation is for there to be an open and frank conversation about guest players. We have seen it work out well most times.
But there was once where it was a complete cluster [luckily I can look back and laugh now]. It was at an end of the year "world series". We show up to the first game and there are kids and parents that the core team had never seen before. Start of the first game, one of these new players is on the mound and gets rocked!! Not, like chisel rocked. Not, like drill hammer rocked. But like, multiple cases of TNT rocked!!! To make it worse the dad keeps yelling, "You're doing great Jonhnny, you just keep throwing it right down the middle." It was the worst beating our team had ever been a part of. We had beat this same team many times, but we had become AA team overnight due to these "guest players". Parents stopped sitting with each other, and by the end of the tournament, I could not name a single kid playing the infield. It was also not one of those situations where no one else knew what was going on. Every team at the tournament could tell because it was open rebellion. It was a disaster. But it was quite the show. I should have sold tickets. |
| tellit |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 12:38:19
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
I have 2 boys and have been on both sides of this situation. Personally, when a coach called and asked us to "pick Up", my first question was do you "need a player" or do you "want a player". I never really minded my son playing if a team needed a player. It was no fun for us to play with a team that just "wanted" a player and knowing that you just ticked off a group of parents so that a coach could chase a plastic trophy.
There are all types of teams, so ask questions and find the one that is the best "fit" for your child. There is not a problem with "picking up kids" as long as the coach is upfront about it BEFORE he collects your check! Sadly it usually doesn't happen that way.
Great points. Honest coaches, that is where it all starts for just about everything. |
| Candler7 |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 11:17:42
Well said wareagle and turntwo, coach egos getting in way of positive development in many cases. |
| Candler7 |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 11:11:18
I don't know how it will work, but I'm all for TC or someone making an objective decision in the team's level. That's a big problem, both parents and coaches having an overinflated view of the talent level of their team. Like someone said, soooo many teams in metro and yea many have a few major level kids on the team. They also have some AA level kids on the team. But they play or think they should play D1/Major and also try to recruit (usually unsuccessfully) major talent. And that is why they look for pickup players, to compete at a level they probably shouldn't be playing. There are relatively few true Major teams top to bottom around here. I just think if teams played at their true level, it would probably be a better experience all around. But advertising "High AA/Low AAA team seeks players" doesn't "sell" like advertising "Major team seeks players", LOL. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 11:01:34
It's a slippery slope, what T/C is doing... Who determines which team is which level? And yet further, just because a kid is a 643 Cougar (D1/Major), doesn't mean he's a stud. He could be the 11th, 13th, 16th kid on the roster, and sits more than plays, yet he would be 'ineligible' to pitch simply because of his team?
USSSA freezes their rosters after a certain date, for certain classification levels. This to avoid (in theory) 'hired guns'.
No org is perfect, in terms of protecting the integrity of the game... There will always be 'hired guns', there will always be 'sandbaggers'. As long as there are coach's out there that have their egos stroked by plastic hardware, there will be folks trying to get a 'one up' on the rest. |
| wareagle |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 10:45:23
I have 2 boys and have been on both sides of this situation. Personally, when a coach called and asked us to "pick Up", my first question was do you "need a player" or do you "want a player". I never really minded my son playing if a team needed a player. It was no fun for us to play with a team that just "wanted" a player and knowing that you just ticked off a group of parents so that a coach could chase a plastic trophy.
There are all types of teams, so ask questions and find the one that is the best "fit" for your child. There is not a problem with "picking up kids" as long as the coach is upfront about it BEFORE he collects your check! Sadly it usually doesn't happen that way. |
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