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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| who |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 15:22:14
Our son is dealing with his first arm injury due to overuse. He is 11. Now, moving forward we want to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future. For those who have gotten their boys through the travel season without injury - can you share? What type of questions do you reccomend asking a coach before joining a team. Do you have set guidelines on your team for pitch count and rest times? With 2-3 day tournaments how have you been able to give adequate rest to your key pitchers while staying competitive.
What have you seen that has been successful in protecting young arms and what would you do differently? Thanks for the advice. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| GeneralsCoach |
Posted - 03/11/2013 : 09:27:10
quote:
Originally posted by who
Our son is dealing with his first arm injury due to overuse. He is 11. Now, moving forward we want to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future. For those who have gotten their boys through the travel season without injury - can you share? What type of questions do you reccomend asking a coach before joining a team. Do you have set guidelines on your team for pitch count and rest times? With 2-3 day tournaments how have you been able to give adequate rest to your key pitchers while staying competitive.
What have you seen that has been successful in protecting young arms and what would you do differently? Thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately pitch count is not as important as the mechanics of your throwing. You should have a video analysis done on your son by someone who is knowledgeable in the correct positioning of the arm during the pitching delivery and the factors that lead to stress at the elbow or the shoulder. If he is an "arm-thrower" and not using his full body to deliver the pitch, he is going to be prone to injury. A kid with poor mechanics might tell you he feels pain after only 30 pitches whereas a kid with good throwing mechanics can throw 70-80 without feeling any pain.
Unfortunately it is rare to find a youth baseball coach who has that knowledge and can help your son pitch correctly. It also takes a lot of time and discipline to make changes, but the sooner you make them, the longer and more successful your son's pitching career will be. Pain at 11 is a definite red flag. No amount of rest rules or pitch counts is going to offset poor mechanics.
And if you think it will get better as he gets older, don't count on it. The number of pitchers on the DL list in MLB has been going exponentially up. It is easy to see why a pitcher like Strassburg or Tommy Hanson end up getting injured. They have very poor mechanics. Who was helping them? High velocity does not mean great mechanics. Good control also has nothing to do with mechanics.
In the short-term, I would recommend a good dynamic warm-up off the throwing arm and shoulder (not stretching, ASMI has proven that static stretching of the arm actually causes more injuries). Have your son stop throwing the minute he feels pain, especially in the front of the shoulder or bicep pain. I can bet you that he throws with a low elbow. Never come in to pitch without warming up first. After pitching, a good cool-down program of reversing the muscles use through the use of bands is also key. ASMI has also proven that ice has no effect on the recovery of a pitcher. If it makes you feel good, do it, but taking a jog to get oxygen to the muscles and then cooling them down properly will have a much greater effect.
Hope this helps. If you have any further questions, feel free to email me. Good luck. |
| bballman |
Posted - 03/02/2013 : 13:02:13
Good article.
http://www.cleveland.com/dman/index.ssf/2013/02/noted_surgeon_dr_james_andrews.html
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| 11UFAN |
Posted - 02/22/2013 : 16:54:09
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
Taking PED's is 100% on the players taking them.
quote:
You're wrong about that. The owners have condoned this type of behavior for decades. The HOF is full of cheaters who used corked bats,doctored baseballs, and used drugs like amphetamines and painkillers so they could play. At the height of the Amphetamines era, some clubhouses had two pots of coffee set up, leaded and unleaded.
Talk to players from the 50's and 60's and they'll tell you that you the club expected them to play hurt, or somebody else would take your job. When an entire sport has evolved into a culture that demands performance, no matter your physical ailments, and has long looked the other way on cheating, of any kind, then its hard to single out just the players. . . .
TRUE. I know a guy that just recently died, but played MLB in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's who told me that the teams kept bowls of "greenies" in the clubhouse available for players to use. And they did. I know Mickey Mantle drank to help make the pain in his knees tolerable. He also said that if the drugs that are available today were available back then, they would have done it. He said things were so competitive back then, players would do whatever they could to stay on the field.
I don't think things have changed at all. I just think technology and science has made different things available.
One of the biggest problems I have is that some of these guys are being judged for using PEDs that were not even banned by MLB at the time they were using them. Sure, there are some guys that violated the rules, but there are a lot that didn't violate any MLB rules and are still being held accountable as if they did.
Another point I like to make is that the other thing that has changed over time is the knowledge surrounding nutrition. A lot of these guys study up on nutrition or have nutritional consultants that design a diet for them. This alone will help an individual gain muscle, eliminate fat and increase endurance. This is also something that the players of old did not have available to them. Does that make it an unfair advantage? I was watching a roundhouse discussion last night chaired by Bob Costas and included Tony LaRussa, a couple other players and some baseball writers. The general consensus was that the league should allow the use of steroids/drugs (not anabolic steroids necessarily) when they are prescribed by a legitimate doctor for use during rehabilitation from injury. As long as they are only used for the rehabilitation time frame. The use stops when the injury has healed. This is no more than some of these guys did.
When medications are developed to help heal injuries, why should players not be allowed to use them as long as they are prescribed by a qualified/MLB certified physician? I think there is much more that goes into this than meets the immediate eye.
Just some things to ponder.
You are absolutley allowed to use doctor prescribed drugs when you have an injury. There are steps to take and rules to follow to get waivers to get approvals but it happens ALL THE TIME.
The "casual fan" may not know this because its never an issue when you follow the rules. |
| 11UFAN |
Posted - 02/22/2013 : 16:45:39
A player is responsible for what he puts into his body and no one else. I can't believe the posts on here defending PED use or putting the blame on someone else. Everybody does it, they used greenies in the 50's-70's, they drink coffee. What a joke.
We are talking about drugs that make your skull grow, shrink your balls and make hair grow all over your body.
Look at Barry Bonds before and after. The home run king, BS. Do you want your sons looking up to and trying to be like these guys???? Baseball is a sport that has a higher standard. They should have a minimum 1 year suspension if caught and be kicked out for life on a second offense.
EVERY professional team has doctors and staff that can and do advise you and get you legal substances. Going to Miami to a doctor banned from baseball using an alias or a front person isnt necessary unless you are a CHEATER!!
HOF my ass, Hall of Shame is more appropriate.
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| Spartan4 |
Posted - 02/20/2013 : 12:06:42
Point taken, I personally believe it was an era just like the guys in the 50s-90s using amphetamines. They should still get in the HOF IMO. Brady Anderson is just one player I chose to make an example. I guess it's totally normal for a 50 stolen base guy with 72 career bombs who weighs 170lbs to suddenly hit more in a season than Hank Aaron or Ted Williams ever did.....
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| jacjacatk |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 21:31:22
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Another issue is that during the height of the steroid era the actual "steroids" weren't specifically against MLB rules. MLB only started giving a flip when the media started calling athletes out for gaining 70lbs in 3 years. Ad regarding Brady Anderson and Tommy Harper is one hit 13 more homeruns than his previous best and the other hit 29 more. Pretty big difference there... And Anderson later admitted to using PEDs.
Harper hit 72% more HR in his fluke season than in his 2nd best season, and Anderson hit 108% more. How about Bert Campenaris (175%), or Davey Johnson (139%).
Also, as far as I can find, Anderson never admitted to using steroids, and given that steroid use wasn't penalized in baseball until 2005, it's odd to me that he'd use them just in 1996, when 1997 was the final year of his contract (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/defending-brady-anderson/).
I think that suggesting that anyone who's had unusual success must be cheating is a lesson with substantially more negative consequences than steroid use in sports. |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 16:43:22
I agree bballman. Its understandable why a casual fan, who has no real idea about some of the more sullied parts of the game's history, would vilify the players. I am not condoning the use of PED's one way or the other. But if its a legal drug that can be prescribed to the general public for its intended purpose, then why would athletes in any sport not be allowed the same treatment?
So, this whole thread was really about arm injuries and overuse and its devolved to the PED issue. But to me its basically the same concept: The desire to win, or more likely, the dream of getting to the next level, drives coaches, parents and kids to try and push performance beyond reasonable limits.
Overuse occurs out of ignorance, and it occurs out of a perceived justified necessity. Either you don't know enough about mechanics to understand what causes injury, or you don't understand that each arm has its limits and strengths, or you may believe that you don't have enough pitching to compete. The truth about that is nobody ever has enough pitching at any level, which is why there are more pitchers than any other position on a team. Even so, MLB teams seem to find innings for even the worst pitchers on the staff. Hmm, I wonder why?
If you are a parent there is nothing wrong with wanting to professionalize your son's game with lessons, diet, constant training, and year round play if that's what he wants. But you better take the time and energy to investigate and research the conventional wisdom on the issues so you can decide what is best for your son. Baseball is full of conventional wisdom that has been passed down generation to generation without anybody knowing why things are done or taught a certain way, and a lot of it is wrong. Don't leave it up to the coach or the instructor. And don't rely on them simply because they played ball somewhere down the line. Educate yourself and then you will know if the coaches/instructors know what they are doing.
If you are a coach, then make sure you work up your players so you don't have to ride 1 or 2 arms in a tourney. Make sure you are incorporating proper warm-up and warm-down routines for players. Educate yourself on proper pitching mechanics. Spend the time at practice working on pitching for those kids who are not getting regular lessons and instruction outside the team. Pull pitchers when they are tired, sore, or the hitters tell you its time. There is always somebody else that you can put on the mound.
If you are a player, never, ever pitch with a sore arm or elbow. Playing though pain may mean never playing again.
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| Spartan4 |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 16:20:47
Another issue is that during the height of the steroid era the actual "steroids" weren't specifically against MLB rules. MLB only started giving a flip when the media started calling athletes out for gaining 70lbs in 3 years. Ad regarding Brady Anderson and Tommy Harper is one hit 13 more homeruns than his previous best and the other hit 29 more. Pretty big difference there... And Anderson later admitted to using PEDs. |
| bballman |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 14:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
Taking PED's is 100% on the players taking them.
quote:
You're wrong about that. The owners have condoned this type of behavior for decades. The HOF is full of cheaters who used corked bats,doctored baseballs, and used drugs like amphetamines and painkillers so they could play. At the height of the Amphetamines era, some clubhouses had two pots of coffee set up, leaded and unleaded.
Talk to players from the 50's and 60's and they'll tell you that you the club expected them to play hurt, or somebody else would take your job. When an entire sport has evolved into a culture that demands performance, no matter your physical ailments, and has long looked the other way on cheating, of any kind, then its hard to single out just the players. . . .
TRUE. I know a guy that just recently died, but played MLB in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's who told me that the teams kept bowls of "greenies" in the clubhouse available for players to use. And they did. I know Mickey Mantle drank to help make the pain in his knees tolerable. He also said that if the drugs that are available today were available back then, they would have done it. He said things were so competitive back then, players would do whatever they could to stay on the field.
I don't think things have changed at all. I just think technology and science has made different things available.
One of the biggest problems I have is that some of these guys are being judged for using PEDs that were not even banned by MLB at the time they were using them. Sure, there are some guys that violated the rules, but there are a lot that didn't violate any MLB rules and are still being held accountable as if they did.
Another point I like to make is that the other thing that has changed over time is the knowledge surrounding nutrition. A lot of these guys study up on nutrition or have nutritional consultants that design a diet for them. This alone will help an individual gain muscle, eliminate fat and increase endurance. This is also something that the players of old did not have available to them. Does that make it an unfair advantage? I was watching a roundhouse discussion last night chaired by Bob Costas and included Tony LaRussa, a couple other players and some baseball writers. The general consensus was that the league should allow the use of steroids/drugs (not anabolic steroids necessarily) when they are prescribed by a legitimate doctor for use during rehabilitation from injury. As long as they are only used for the rehabilitation time frame. The use stops when the injury has healed. This is no more than some of these guys did.
When medications are developed to help heal injuries, why should players not be allowed to use them as long as they are prescribed by a qualified/MLB certified physician? I think there is much more that goes into this than meets the immediate eye.
Just some things to ponder. |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 11:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
Taking PED's is 100% on the players taking them.
[/quote]
You're wrong about that. The owners have condoned this type of behavior for decades. The HOF is full of cheaters who used corked bats,doctored baseballs, and used drugs like amphetamines and painkillers so they could play. At the height of the Amphetamines era, some clubhouses had two pots of coffee set up, leaded and unleaded.
Talk to players from the 50's and 60's and they'll tell you that you the club expected them to play hurt, or somebody else would take your job. When an entire sport has evolved into a culture that demands performance, no matter your physical ailments, and has long looked the other way on cheating, of any kind, then its hard to single out just the players. . . . |
| ABC_Baseball |
Posted - 02/19/2013 : 08:48:32
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
...There is no excuse to take PED's, it shows disrespect to the game and everyone that is involved in it. It takes opportunities away from those that follow the rules and destroys the health of the players taking them.
Taking PED's is 100% on the players taking them.
I could not agree with you more. I personally see this in all areas of society. People just DON'T want to do the right thing. Its not hard to not stick a needle in your backside, take an illegal pill, or rub on some band substance.
I understand the love of the game, the locker room, the spot light. Why would you trade it all in for momentary success. If I were a player, I would rather have a 4 or 5 year run, make some money, play the game the right way and maybe be remembered by some fans than be a guys that has an outstanding season or two, then is found out and drops off the face of the earth and your name is mud in the baseball world forever. That's something you can never live down and how do you at 28 or 30 turn that sullied reputation into any kind of career post baseball. |
| jacjacatk |
Posted - 02/17/2013 : 12:06:07
Brady Anderson's HR totals (starting with his first full season) were 21, 13, 12, 16, 50, 18, 18, 24, 19, 8. For some perspective, Tommy Harper hit 10, 4, 18, 5, 7, 6, 9, 31, 14, 14, 17, 5.
Of course, since Harper's fluke year happened in 1970, no one blames steroids. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 02/15/2013 : 17:27:14
So you are saying blame shouldn't also fall on baseball?!? Bud Selig ignored the issue and made how many millions of dollars from 95-05?!?! Palmeiro failed a drug test in spring training yet they allowed him to play until he got his 3000th hit(that was advertised and had "live break ins every at bat"....Players absolutely share the blame but baseball turned a blind eye and then acted shocked when people started stating the obviously. Look at Brady Anderson's yearly HR numbers....9,11,14,8,51,10,12....nope nothing fishy there...I think prior to 98 only 2 men ever hit 61 bombs in a year and the4 4 different people did it 7 times in a 3 year span. All the while the owners and MLB were advertising the hell out of the "homerun chases". Guys that hit 15 bombs a year make a 3rd that the guys who hit 45-50 do and that is why there will always be people trying to get a competitive advantage. |
| 11UFAN |
Posted - 02/15/2013 : 14:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by LilBigTown
As long as people play sports (FOR MONEY) they will be taking some sort of PED's just for thier body to recover from gruesome 160+ schedule... Instead of ripping players blame TV and management of MLB for being greedy. What would happen if MLB played one 3 game series a week for 20 weeks....
Players would make a lot less money, thats what would happen.
Baseball isn't football, basketball or hockey. Those are much more grueling and violent sports. Starting pitchers pitch 7 or 8 innings 30-35 times a year at most, you run ocassionally and there is alot of standing around even when you are an every day player (which is only a fraction of the roster).
Other than every day catchers, it isnt that taxing physically compared to most sports. If it was, there wouldnt be 162 games a year.
There is no excuse to take PED's, it shows disrespect to the game and everyone that is involved in it. It takes opportunities away from those that follow the rules and destroys the health of the players taking them.
Taking PED's is 100% on the players taking them. |
| LilBigTown |
Posted - 02/15/2013 : 09:28:10
As long as people play sports (FOR MONEY) they will be taking some sort of PED's just for thier body to recover from gruesome 160+ schedule... Instead of ripping players blame TV and management of MLB for being greedy. What would happen if MLB played one 3 game series a week for 20 weeks.... |
| bkball |
Posted - 02/14/2013 : 13:33:25
I know this is off topic but I think MLB should measure all players every year at the same time starting with their rookie season, body fat, head size height etc, with the most accurate tool around. If they see huge muscle growth and fat loss in an off season you know something is up. Also if your mph goes up something is fishy as well. Not saying Nolan Ryan used steroids but a former MLB pitcher admited to useing steorids said, when Grimsley joined the Yankees in 1999, he consistently threw 91 to 93 mph. He allegedly told federal agents he began using performance-enhancing drugs the following year, and in 2001 one team clocked him at 96 to 98 mph. |
| spike |
Posted - 02/13/2013 : 18:02:11
Not only count pitches including warm ups but count throws from catcher ..I know 2 catchers who had arm surgery at age 13 |
| BREAMKING |
Posted - 02/13/2013 : 10:27:39
If you guys have never read nolan ryans book "the pitching bible" good read. I got a feeling Rusty bucket has read it. |
| HITANDRUN |
Posted - 02/13/2013 : 10:15:06
I am not a doctor although I train athletes and I can tell you throwing a baseball is rotator cuff training. I would not recommend using bands after throwing, but I would say the next day or two. What I would recommend is stretching both the arm, the hips and legs after pitching. |
| T13 |
Posted - 02/13/2013 : 09:24:58
I was speaking in general terms not to anyone specific...too many parents forget they are just kids and need to have fun! |
| spike |
Posted - 02/13/2013 : 05:50:42
Not only count pitches including warm ups but count throws from catcher ..I know 2 catchers who had arm surgery at age 13 |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 02/12/2013 : 23:29:02
who is Nolan Ryan? |
| rustybucket |
Posted - 02/12/2013 : 22:14:34
quote:
Originally posted by T13
Way too many doctor-coaches on this site who are experts on the arm/shoulder of a 10 year old. All kids are different and develop differently. Not sure you can condition a kids arm who doesn't even know what puberty is yet. Too many think they have to treat their kid like a college or professional player. Let your kid rest after he pitches on a weekend (that means let him be a kid the next week!), no need to touch a ball until Thursday at best. Cconditioning an arm of a 9 year old is crazy. Pitching is bad for you no matter what you do and no matter what your age. The only constant you get from every REAL doctor is that they need to rest, rest, rest (i.e. don't run your kid out for long toss two days after he pitches because you think it will help him become the next Nolan Ryan)!
Ok, so if I'm hearing you right... Pitch them on Saturday, let them play X-Box til Thursday and then they'll be good...?
Never said any of my pitchers would be the next Nolan Ryan, just know that what I did when I was a kid was NOT the right way (pitch on Saturday and then rest until I pitched again).
The problem with this discussion is there is no 'real' answer. There never will be a true answer for every player. The inning count isn't a good judge b/c an inning can get out of hand quickly and pitches will add up.
It is quite ironic that you bring Nolan Ryan into this discussion though. He's a HUGE advocate for letting pitchers go deeper into games and pitch higher pitch counts. He also used to drive nails into softballs to make them heavier so he could throw them. He also threw the football quite often. He was big on conditioning and throwing a LOT.
If we left it completely up to the doctors they would say never pitch. Sadly arm injuries are always possible no matter what you do. I never said what we do is the silver bullet for never having arm injuries, just wanted to share for those interested. |
| T13 |
Posted - 02/12/2013 : 20:18:33
Way too many doctor-coaches on this site who are experts on the arm/shoulder of a 10 year old. All kids are different and develop differently. Not sure you can condition a kids arm who doesn't even know what puberty is yet. Too many think they have to treat their kid like a college or professional player. Let your kid rest after he pitches on a weekend (that means let him be a kid the next week!), no need to touch a ball until Thursday at best. Cconditioning an arm of a 9 year old is crazy. Pitching is bad for you no matter what you do and no matter what your age. The only constant you get from every REAL doctor is that they need to rest, rest, rest (i.e. don't run your kid out for long toss two days after he pitches because you think it will help him become the next Nolan Ryan)! |
| rustybucket |
Posted - 02/12/2013 : 13:29:48
We are only 9u but implemented a stringent arm care program when our team entered 8u (still coach pitch). We use modified Jaeger bands before every practice and before and during every game. When a pitcher steps off the mound (in-between innings) during a game he does a routine with the Jaegers and his reps equal the number of pitches he threw.
We do long toss quite often during practice to help condition the arms. We throw a LOT during practice as well.
I think one of the keys to preventing arm injuries in youth is properly conditioning the arm. I think the term 'over-use' gets confused with 'under-conditioned' in the younger ages.
We also started using shoulder tubes this year in addition to the jaegers. We also implement heavy and light balls throughout the year.
One MAJOR key is to warm up the arm before you EVER pickup a baseball!! Our players do arm circles, flaps and flys in addition to jaeger bands before they ever begin their throwing warmups.
Here's a link to a pitching bootcamp we did earlier this year, kinda outlines some of our conditioning techniques.
http://leatherbusters.com/2013/01/18/pitching-bootcamp-2013/
We keep VERY close tally on pitch counts (warmup pitches and in-game pitches) and slowly build up a pitchers count limit as their conditioning improves.
We used to ice after games but this year we implemented a cool-down workout option for the players to try out. We will see how that goes! |
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