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Bob Balker
456 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:06:36
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| I know Tony reads this b/c he commented before the tourney about pool play match ups. Just like the 14s, the 10s were the same exact thing. He runs great tourneys but to change the format @ one age group when the same amount of games happened @ 2 other groups doesn't make sense. |
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Jacked-up
59 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:21:47
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You are directing your concern in the wrong direction. I agree rules are rules. But life is dynamic - not static. Bottom line, the TD changed the format Saturday. All coaches were aware of it. NONE objected or someone would have posted it. Your team had no issue with it (especially when up 7-0 in 3rd). You should be venting to your head coach as to why he did not object Saturday or Sunday before the ship. Also, ask him if he asked the Longhorn's to play the IF game.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
Spartan, great point about the AABC tourney. The format was never changed. It was talked about adding a wild card. I remember getting a call about how some thought it wasn't right to change the format. End result it wasn't changed. I can say with 100% certainty we have NEVER been in a tournament that changed the format half way through--in 4 seasons of travel baseball & 2 seasons of travel softball. The ONLY time the format has ever changed was from the weather. I've NEVER seen the format get changed from injuries to players. Seen 3 broken limbs, 2 line drive shots to pitchers faces and countless other injuries. NEVER saw a format change from extreme heat (95-100 degree) in Florida--which was a double elimination with more teams. NEVER been to a tournament that the format changed because some team might not have enough pitching. I remember a mom asking the TD what if we don't have that many pitchers? The TD giggled and said you can always forfeit.
If there is a format change you NEVER no who it will effect till the end. That's why you don't change them.
The only other time I've seen a change is when a team backed out the day of and they had to change things to start tourney. Still that was before it started.
Question: If you were the team that won all your games up to the ship in a DOUBLE elimination tournament and didn't have the opportunity to play one more to see who would win - would you, your players, your parents and coaches be fine with that? And if you weren't fine with that couldn't you just forfeit and go home? Why would the TD determine for everyone on Saturday night or mid tournament? I think the coaches are smart enough to determine this on there own. This didn't require a mid tournament format change! The TD knew upfront how many games would be played and could have done it differently from day one.
Bottom line - a format change mid way through is not right.
If the teams were switched in this scenario I no for a fact Spartan would have a gripe as well.....lol
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
I don't recall anybody posting on here or complaining on this forum when the East Cobb AABC tourney was changed DURING the tourney(hosted by the RAYS btw....) it was finally fixed the way it should have been but if it wasn't then I can promise one team would have gotten the shaft. I think the Rays have a legit gripe here and my nephew plays on the Horns, I wouldn't be happy if the tourney was changed halfway thru but this wasn't done to screw the Rays this was done before the Rays first Sunday game and all the remaining teams Sunday games. What really hurt the Rays is they had a really good pitcher who wasn't available and one player was in Cooperstown with another team instead of playing with his full time team. There was great baseball(officiating was consistently horrible) all weekend and our team finally hit the baseball like I have been waiting for all season. Great tourney Braves, Rays, and RBA there were some incredible match-ups and a lot of fun. Can't believe that NYO didn't come in there and spank all us money spending drama filled travel teams tho....After their parents told me how great they were I didn't think we would have a chance!!
Don't understand the gripe about the short fences either?? Both teams played with the same fences(I don't remember a crew changing the distances between half innings?) and I don't remember many teams just knocking the wall down with line drives either....Some MLB parks are tiny and some are huge...Part of the game
Andy your CF will be in high demand after this weekend!! Dude made more than one GREAT play out there!
(I think because it is 2 EC teams we could solve this entire issue and see who had who many innings left between the teams and just have a little fun scrimmage during our practice slots? I promise our boys could care less whether their .40cent medals say finalist or champion on it.....)
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:46:32
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I would have definately said something Gwinnett!!! In my above post I said I thought yall had a legit gripe....I just know it was decided before the Sunday Bracket games started.....Could have happened to anyone that day it just so happened to be the Rays....like I said after that crazy day I don't think our boys would have been really worried what the medals said. #4 and #13 both had an entire game left and #s 23 and #17 had a few innings left too, I just think they would have been too gassed to compete(idk for
Certain tho the way the boys were hitting we were for sure on a little roll).....Good tourney either way, I totally agree with In The Know regarding limiting the # of total teams in each age group and using this format more often.....I would think taking the top 12-16 Major teams would let it happen and would make these tourneys awesome!! I love the double elim format....That has always beens one complaint with TC that the quality of teams is so varied where with USSSA we can find a tourney where every team is tough.....it was a crazy day of ball and I have a whole new level of respect for the travel softball players who routinely play 4-5-6 games a day....that's nuts!! |
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Just-in
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 10:55:09
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I-T-K, that is the best point in this entire conversation....Great facilities and outstanding competitive match-ups, but simply too many games in such a small window of time.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
In this same tournament, at the 14u age group, they did not change the format. The team in the losing half of of the championship game won game one. The team then chose to forfeit the rubber championship game due to player fatigue and arm protection. The team had played 5 games THAT DAY and to have played the rubber game would have been to play their 6th game of the day. This would have been in addition to the 5 games already played on Friday and Saturday.
The format wasn't changed for this age group and the coaches took it upon themselves to choose to play the rubber game or not. Good for them to choose in the best interest of the boys.
The double elimination format is an outstanding one. I wish more tournaments would use it. However, changes need to be considered to either limit the number of teams allowed, especially if you have a 3 day window, or extend the time to host the tournament, starting on a Tuesday or Wednesday and playing through Sunday. Regardless of how formats may or may not have changed during the tournament, 11 games in three days at these ages is simply ridiculous.
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 14:43:21
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Jacked-up, are you a coach of one of these teams? The coaches I talked to said they were informed period. This was not openly discussed with all coaches nor was it put up to a vote-they were just informed. I'm guessing the TD discussed with you and you were OK with it? Did you compete in this tourney? And NO our coach wouldn't get on this forum and say he objected. That's my job. Maybe your team would like to play the IF game with us????? Can't wait to hear.....
quote:
Originally posted by Jacked-up
You are directing your concern in the wrong direction. I agree rules are rules. But life is dynamic - not static. Bottom line, the TD changed the format Saturday. All coaches were aware of it. NONE objected or someone would have posted it. Your team had no issue with it (especially when up 7-0 in 3rd). You should be venting to your head coach as to why he did not object Saturday or Sunday before the ship. Also, ask him if he asked the Longhorn's to play the IF game.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
Spartan, great point about the AABC tourney. The format was never changed. It was talked about adding a wild card. I remember getting a call about how some thought it wasn't right to change the format. End result it wasn't changed. I can say with 100% certainty we have NEVER been in a tournament that changed the format half way through--in 4 seasons of travel baseball & 2 seasons of travel softball. The ONLY time the format has ever changed was from the weather. I've NEVER seen the format get changed from injuries to players. Seen 3 broken limbs, 2 line drive shots to pitchers faces and countless other injuries. NEVER saw a format change from extreme heat (95-100 degree) in Florida--which was a double elimination with more teams. NEVER been to a tournament that the format changed because some team might not have enough pitching. I remember a mom asking the TD what if we don't have that many pitchers? The TD giggled and said you can always forfeit.
If there is a format change you NEVER no who it will effect till the end. That's why you don't change them.
The only other time I've seen a change is when a team backed out the day of and they had to change things to start tourney. Still that was before it started.
Question: If you were the team that won all your games up to the ship in a DOUBLE elimination tournament and didn't have the opportunity to play one more to see who would win - would you, your players, your parents and coaches be fine with that? And if you weren't fine with that couldn't you just forfeit and go home? Why would the TD determine for everyone on Saturday night or mid tournament? I think the coaches are smart enough to determine this on there own. This didn't require a mid tournament format change! The TD knew upfront how many games would be played and could have done it differently from day one.
Bottom line - a format change mid way through is not right.
If the teams were switched in this scenario I no for a fact Spartan would have a gripe as well.....lol
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
I don't recall anybody posting on here or complaining on this forum when the East Cobb AABC tourney was changed DURING the tourney(hosted by the RAYS btw....) it was finally fixed the way it should have been but if it wasn't then I can promise one team would have gotten the shaft. I think the Rays have a legit gripe here and my nephew plays on the Horns, I wouldn't be happy if the tourney was changed halfway thru but this wasn't done to screw the Rays this was done before the Rays first Sunday game and all the remaining teams Sunday games. What really hurt the Rays is they had a really good pitcher who wasn't available and one player was in Cooperstown with another team instead of playing with his full time team. There was great baseball(officiating was consistently horrible) all weekend and our team finally hit the baseball like I have been waiting for all season. Great tourney Braves, Rays, and RBA there were some incredible match-ups and a lot of fun. Can't believe that NYO didn't come in there and spank all us money spending drama filled travel teams tho....After their parents told me how great they were I didn't think we would have a chance!!
Don't understand the gripe about the short fences either?? Both teams played with the same fences(I don't remember a crew changing the distances between half innings?) and I don't remember many teams just knocking the wall down with line drives either....Some MLB parks are tiny and some are huge...Part of the game
Andy your CF will be in high demand after this weekend!! Dude made more than one GREAT play out there!
(I think because it is 2 EC teams we could solve this entire issue and see who had who many innings left between the teams and just have a little fun scrimmage during our practice slots? I promise our boys could care less whether their .40cent medals say finalist or champion on it.....)
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 15:22:20
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| GWINNETT It is over let it go it is not going to change. All the coaches knew about the changes. Your team will get another shot at the Longhorns just wait. Or they can play a best 2out of 3 to settle the whole thing winner takes all if that will make you happy.I will even contact the coach of the Longhorns for you. I will even put up $500.00 with you winner take all..........LOL |
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Jacked-up
59 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2012 : 15:49:11
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You selectively respond...Did your coach object when notified? I did not say it was up for a vote. Y or N?
Did your team complain when up 7-0 in 3rd? Y or N?
Did any of your coaches ask the Longhorn coach to play IF game? Y or N?
I am sure the Longhorn's would step up to your challenge...
quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
Jacked-up, are you a coach of one of these teams? The coaches I talked to said they were informed period. This was not openly discussed with all coaches nor was it put up to a vote-they were just informed. I'm guessing the TD discussed with you and you were OK with it? Did you compete in this tourney? And NO our coach wouldn't get on this forum and say he objected. That's my job. Maybe your team would like to play the IF game with us????? Can't wait to hear.....
quote:
Originally posted by Jacked-up
You are directing your concern in the wrong direction. I agree rules are rules. But life is dynamic - not static. Bottom line, the TD changed the format Saturday. All coaches were aware of it. NONE objected or someone would have posted it. Your team had no issue with it (especially when up 7-0 in 3rd). You should be venting to your head coach as to why he did not object Saturday or Sunday before the ship. Also, ask him if he asked the Longhorn's to play the IF game.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
Spartan, great point about the AABC tourney. The format was never changed. It was talked about adding a wild card. I remember getting a call about how some thought it wasn't right to change the format. End result it wasn't changed. I can say with 100% certainty we have NEVER been in a tournament that changed the format half way through--in 4 seasons of travel baseball & 2 seasons of travel softball. The ONLY time the format has ever changed was from the weather. I've NEVER seen the format get changed from injuries to players. Seen 3 broken limbs, 2 line drive shots to pitchers faces and countless other injuries. NEVER saw a format change from extreme heat (95-100 degree) in Florida--which was a double elimination with more teams. NEVER been to a tournament that the format changed because some team might not have enough pitching. I remember a mom asking the TD what if we don't have that many pitchers? The TD giggled and said you can always forfeit.
If there is a format change you NEVER no who it will effect till the end. That's why you don't change them.
The only other time I've seen a change is when a team backed out the day of and they had to change things to start tourney. Still that was before it started.
Question: If you were the team that won all your games up to the ship in a DOUBLE elimination tournament and didn't have the opportunity to play one more to see who would win - would you, your players, your parents and coaches be fine with that? And if you weren't fine with that couldn't you just forfeit and go home? Why would the TD determine for everyone on Saturday night or mid tournament? I think the coaches are smart enough to determine this on there own. This didn't require a mid tournament format change! The TD knew upfront how many games would be played and could have done it differently from day one.
Bottom line - a format change mid way through is not right.
If the teams were switched in this scenario I no for a fact Spartan would have a gripe as well.....lol
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
I don't recall anybody posting on here or complaining on this forum when the East Cobb AABC tourney was changed DURING the tourney(hosted by the RAYS btw....) it was finally fixed the way it should have been but if it wasn't then I can promise one team would have gotten the shaft. I think the Rays have a legit gripe here and my nephew plays on the Horns, I wouldn't be happy if the tourney was changed halfway thru but this wasn't done to screw the Rays this was done before the Rays first Sunday game and all the remaining teams Sunday games. What really hurt the Rays is they had a really good pitcher who wasn't available and one player was in Cooperstown with another team instead of playing with his full time team. There was great baseball(officiating was consistently horrible) all weekend and our team finally hit the baseball like I have been waiting for all season. Great tourney Braves, Rays, and RBA there were some incredible match-ups and a lot of fun. Can't believe that NYO didn't come in there and spank all us money spending drama filled travel teams tho....After their parents told me how great they were I didn't think we would have a chance!!
Don't understand the gripe about the short fences either?? Both teams played with the same fences(I don't remember a crew changing the distances between half innings?) and I don't remember many teams just knocking the wall down with line drives either....Some MLB parks are tiny and some are huge...Part of the game
Andy your CF will be in high demand after this weekend!! Dude made more than one GREAT play out there!
(I think because it is 2 EC teams we could solve this entire issue and see who had who many innings left between the teams and just have a little fun scrimmage during our practice slots? I promise our boys could care less whether their .40cent medals say finalist or champion on it.....)
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BGrazzini
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 00:07:52
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Here is another perspective from a Rays parent, the intent of my post is to put this to rest.
First of all, I am extremely proud of the 10 young men that played for the Rays on Sunday. We won top seed and and swept the winners bracket against teams we've been competitive with this Spring but have never beaten. We had to come from behind against the horns, we were down 6-0. We pulled ahead of the Braves, they came back with a great run and pulled ahead and we had to win it with a walk-off in the bottom of the 6th.
We played great baseball, hats off to our coaches and the team.
Did we earn our opportunity to play the "IF" game, yes. Did we get screwed out of an opportunity to play another game. Yes.
I found out Sunday before our game with the Braves that there would be no IF game. It was TC's decision and there was no debating the issue because it was the right decision. The reality of it was that that game was never really feasible because having to play 5 games and end at midnight was not in the best interest of the players. It was a grueling tourney to play with 10 players and we only played 7 games.
Where TC screwed up was that they need a longer tournament if they want to put on double elimination tourneys with a bunch of teams. Hopefully they learned their lesson because I wouldn't want another team to have to go through what we went through last weekend.
Having said all that, Did the Longhorns earn the Championship. ABSOLUTELY. We were up 7-0 and they put up 11 runs on us the next inning and hit 6 or 7 bombs. Short fences are no excuse, we had the same opportunity to hit homeruns as they did. They simply out hit us in the 4th inning.
The Longhorns had nothing to do with the change in format and they won the last game of the tourney.
Tae's group did this with 10 players and earned the win in a big way. I know the Longhorns coaches and parents are extremely proud of their players and a change in formatting doesn't take anything away from their win.
Congrats to the Longhorns.
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Edited by - BGrazzini on 06/07/2012 08:28:15 |
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gatorboy1
56 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 13:03:30
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very well said grazzini and congrats to both teams, either way someone was going to be on the losing end of a great run. It's always best to error on the side of saefty and asking any 12 yr old team to play 9/10 games in 3 days is tremendously risky for their well being. both teams were playing expectional ball so kudos out to both coaches and players, these teams have had some great games over the past few years with each winning some and losing some. parity is here and it's at it's finest, congrats to both teams.
but as we know, your only as good as your last tournament. |
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Bob Balker
456 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2012 : 14:12:48
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| Again no one seems to be able to answer the obvious ?; if it is too much for 12U to play 8-10 games over a 3 day period (which I agree it is) then why did Triple Crown not do the same or allow the 10U age group to do the exact opposite and play the IF game? I agree it was probably a good idea and agreed upon Sat nite/Sun am that no IF game would be played but why let other age groups do the exact opposite |
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Cooper
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 16:01:52
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| 8-10 games in 3 days is way too much for 12 year old kids. At that point, it becomes more about what the dads want than what's good for the kids. |
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bb4life
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2012 : 17:49:13
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| Well there is a good chance for a rematch next weekend between the Rays and Horns to settle the score.Was hoping to see them play in the losers bracket at the state tournament but it got rained out. Both are listed in the Tc tournament although Rays made head elsewhere ? You can run but you can't hide (lol) btw- this time it is a single elimination tournament- unless of course it gets changed ! |
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2012 : 22:30:34
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neither team is running, we've played each other several times over the past 3 yrs and it's always a spirited game because most of the kids know each other and have played each other for years. We are playing in Triple Crown's tournament the weekend of 6/22-6/24 because we had transferred a credit from a previous tournament to this one, otherwise we might of played in the woodbat tournament at east cobb. GA Select, Smash, Alpharetta Titans and NYO are in the triple crown tournament so we will have our hands full and Select kicked our butt in usssa state and NYO is playing really well.
quote:
Originally posted by bb4life
Well there is a good chance for a rematch next weekend between the Rays and Horns to settle the score.Was hoping to see them play in the losers bracket at the state tournament but it got rained out. Both are listed in the Tc tournament although Rays made head elsewhere ? You can run but you can't hide (lol) btw- this time it is a single elimination tournament- unless of course it gets changed !
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 08:33:21
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I agree that is too many games but isn't the potential to play that many games available in Cooperstown as well? In fact, you could play that many in 2 days once in bracket in addition to the 6 pool games.
quote:
Originally posted by Cooper
8-10 games in 3 days is way too much for 12 year old kids. At that point, it becomes more about what the dads want than what's good for the kids.
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 12:01:49
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| We played 8 in cooperstown, 2,2,4 and if we won the 4th it woud have been 9 games. Our team was not nearly as deep as others, and we did fine. Tired and crashed, but it wasn't too much. |
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Cooper
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 16:13:07
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| Tell that to a family who's child throws his arm out playing 4 games in a day, and I am not talking about just pitchers. An outfielder might throw a ball 150-200 times in a day like that with all the warm-ups, etc. That is too much. It is up to us adults to put an end to this nonsense of playing that many games in a day. You also can't tell me there is not a safety issue as well. A kid who has stood in the hot sun all day is not as alert in his 4th game as he should be. Fatigue takes over after being on a field for 8-9 hours. So a third baseman has a decent shot of taking a hard hit ball to the face when they are not alert enough to make that split second decision to raise his glove. It's just common sense. |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 16:55:05
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you make a great point, that is why the astros don't play ,more then 4 games in a day. If it happens then they usually forefeit. Happened in the 13u age group and it was a championship game. But then again, when you have 16-18 kids on a roster why is 4 games that tiring??
quote:
Originally posted by Cooper
Tell that to a family who's child throws his arm out playing 4 games in a day, and I am not talking about just pitchers. An outfielder might throw a ball 150-200 times in a day like that with all the warm-ups, etc. That is too much. It is up to us adults to put an end to this nonsense of playing that many games in a day. You also can't tell me there is not a safety issue as well. A kid who has stood in the hot sun all day is not as alert in his 4th game as he should be. Fatigue takes over after being on a field for 8-9 hours. So a third baseman has a decent shot of taking a hard hit ball to the face when they are not alert enough to make that split second decision to raise his glove. It's just common sense.
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 17:22:24
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Everybody has a choice! Parents choose whether to play on a team that plays all the big tourneys. Coachs make a choice to play 3-8 games a day. TD's make the choice to have tourneys that you might have to play countless games in one day. So who's fault is it really???
My 10 year old daughter has played 8 games in one day 8am till 11:45pm in 95 degree heat. I was dieing in the shade. Yes they can do it.
I no if I wanted to make sure it never happened because its too much I would play on a local rec-league team. It will happen in travel ball if you play the big tourneys!
quote:
Originally posted by Cooper
Tell that to a family who's child throws his arm out playing 4 games in a day, and I am not talking about just pitchers. An outfielder might throw a ball 150-200 times in a day like that with all the warm-ups, etc. That is too much. It is up to us adults to put an end to this nonsense of playing that many games in a day. You also can't tell me there is not a safety issue as well. A kid who has stood in the hot sun all day is not as alert in his 4th game as he should be. Fatigue takes over after being on a field for 8-9 hours. So a third baseman has a decent shot of taking a hard hit ball to the face when they are not alert enough to make that split second decision to raise his glove. It's just common sense.
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 18:24:37
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| You know what you are getting when you play travel ball if you cannot handle it take litte johnny and play rec ball. Kids can play all day in the pool but cannot play baseball give me a break. If something is not a good fit for some people it is just wrong. So the next time little johnny want to swin all day tell him no you may get hit with a water toy in the face |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 23:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
You know what you are getting when you play travel ball if you cannot handle it take litte johnny and play rec ball. Kids can play all day in the pool but cannot play baseball give me a break. If something is not a good fit for some people it is just wrong. So the next time little johnny want to swin all day tell him no you may get hit with a water toy in the face
Not sure if serious but I am crying I'm laughing so hard!!! |
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 23:16:06
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| Rationalize it any way you want, but 8 games in a day is not too much for just playing, swimming and even batting, but it is definitely too much for fielding and pitching. It's not done at any other level of baseball - just travel. We all do it and know it is absurd and hope that it doesn't do any real damage, but when Big 'Ol Johnny's arm is blown from overuse, there is no one to blame but the parent. You can deflect to rec ball all day, but there is no logical way to make sense out of 8 games a day. We might as well just admit we are all over the top and it's driven more by adult egos than anything else. |
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2012 : 09:22:16
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| iirc, we played the most games that Sunday and it was 5 total, not sure where 8 games came from. For the tournament, we played 9 games total and still had 2 kids that only pitched 1 inning between them. No player pitched more then 8 innings that weekend, we are fairly deep in arms and had to use all of it to adavance. |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2012 : 10:11:40
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| If you look at most of the kid's that got hurt this yr most were not from playing baseball. So i have no idea were some people come up with it is to much for 12yr old boy, and most are now 13yr old. So for little johnny and his DAD their a lot of rec parks out their looking for kids. SP4 yes i was for real u could get hit in the face with a water toy after being in the pool all day. So litte johnny can only swin for 3 laps 8 laps just too many for him. |
Edited by - ONE WAY on 06/15/2012 21:17:06 |
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Cooper
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 07:35:34
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| Overbearing fathers trying to recapture their own lost youth through forcing their own sons to play ball to the point they get hurt and burned out is what is wrong with youth sports today. |
Edited by - Cooper on 06/16/2012 20:22:41 |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2012 : 17:15:26
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| I pitched over 100 inninngs in both my JR and SR year of High school. Parents please get over it. You want to know why no big league pitcher can go over 5 innings...IT all starts here. I used to long toss across the entire outfield, and throw a 30 minute pen before each game...you get to pro ball and you can only long toss 120' and do 10 minute pens max! Now, I didn't get to the bigs, but it wasn't due to arm issues; it was a little thing called strikes...haha.. |
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