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bball1311
20 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2012 : 19:08:02
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| What do y'all believe is the average velocity for a major pitcher? What is the highest you have seen? The highest I have heard of is 87 by a kid on Chet's Lemon Juice and fastest i have seen is 80 by a 13u kid and 81 buy a 14u kid. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2012 : 19:47:36
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Lol. I got average living in my house. Never gets an opportunity to pitch but suddenly does this summer. Thrown out there at 14 in a 16u tournament. More strikes than balls and clocked living in low 70s topping at 76.
He's not major. If he decides to get serious about things and use his legs etc and so forth, he could be. And the best part is while all those guys his age who got overused are getting elbow rehab or taking time off to let the growth plate heal, he might get their mound time. 
Oh. And he was throwing about 80%... |
Edited by - rippit on 07/09/2012 21:07:08 |
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With-a-stick
33 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2012 : 00:26:29
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Look at Perfect Game tournaments/blogs, 14u pitching tops on FB looks like some throwing 85 with the very top being at 90 for a rare few pitchers each season. Most gunned in the mid and high 70s for the FB and 60s for CB and off speed. When it comes down to it, location over velocity is how the mortals have to work it.
http://www.perfectgame.org/Tournaments/default.aspx
My 2 cents:
1. Locate
2. Movement
3. Deception
4. Velocity
#2 and #3 can interchange but without #1 it would be tough to stay on the mound more than an inning. Having the top three and if he can change speeds makes for a tough time at the plate. |
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2012 : 21:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by bball1311
What do y'all believe is the average velocity for a major pitcher? What is the highest you have seen? The highest I have heard of is 87 by a kid on Chet's Lemon Juice and fastest i have seen is 80 by a 13u kid and 81 buy a 14u kid.
How bout that. 3 years ago when my son was 11. We played them down in PCB. We put the gun on one of his players, 75. He was at least 5'9" at 11 years old. |
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shoeless
5 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 08:09:12
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| I gotta agree with with-a-stick. My son played 14U MAJ last year. Perfect Game has a radar gun behind the plate for all games. Most pitchers are in the low 70's, a few are in the high 60's, very few are in the upper 70's and low 80's.... and we faced one pitcher, with a team from Puerto Rico, that threw in the low 90's (92 I think). Most of those watching didn't believe this kid was 14... he looked 16 and Im told the non-US teams will many times use falsified birth certificates. The pitchers in the high 60's and low 70's get rocked, as do those in the mid to upper 70's unless they can hit their spots and have a quality off speed pitch or 2. I saw quite a few pitcher throwing 75-76 with good control and a low ERA. Most of the better batters prefer low 80's over low 70's, and they trive on the upper 70's to mid-80-'s fastballs. Speed is far less important than (1) ball placement and a (2) good mix of pitches. |
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Buckner
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 09:14:11
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We should be talking about who has the nastiest curve.
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Tribe
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 11:07:22
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Shoeless, I used to think that speed was less important than location too. Perhaps it is at 14U, but that will change soon.
While location is certainly important for any pitcher, as you approach 16U-17U it's all about velocity.
Most viable prospects start showing up on the college recruiting radar at 16U. The scouts want to see velocity first and foremost.
Why? Because of a quality known as "projectability". You see, these college programs all feel that they can teach a flame-throwing pitcher how to locate, but they know it's much more difficult to add velocity, especially if a prospect appears physically mature at 17 or 18 years old.
This is a bit off-topic, but I would guess that to be considered a legitimate college (say D1 or high D2) pitching prospect, a RHP better be throwing 87-90; a capable lefty could possibly get away with a max velo of 84-87.
My point in stating this is that if your son has college baseball ambitions, do not disregard the importance of a live fastball, and certainly don't feel that great control somehow compensates for a substandard fastball. It doesn't, at least not in the eyes of a college recruiter.
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 09:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bball1311
What do y'all believe is the average velocity for a major pitcher? What is the highest you have seen? The highest I have heard of is 87 by a kid on Chet's Lemon Juice and fastest i have seen is 80 by a 13u kid and 81 buy a 14u kid.
I agree with Tribe on this one. Also it's pretty amazing that at 13U I saw 4 kids hit 80 or above all season. 2 of those being lefties from GA that I stood behind someone holding a radar gun.
But suddenly at 14U they are hitting mid 80's? I think most players at 14 will be throwing mid 70's. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 10:41:28
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| I have noticed that perfect game metrics are a little off when compared with the pro-showcases. A good example is the 2012 east coast pro showcase: I think the top speed from the top prospects was 92mph, but if you look at those same kids on the perfect game venue, there numbers would be around 96 mph. The 60 yard times are off also. The top speed at the showcase was 6.6, but if you go and look at perfect game the same kids were running 6.4. Does anyone know what this is about? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 11:57:42
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A little bored this morning, so I thought I'd go look this up. On the Perfect Game web site, I did a search for all kids from Georgia that are listed as a pitcher that have played in PG tournaments. I figured the 14 year olds are going to be in the 2017 class. There were only 20 kids listed, 14 of whom had velocities listed. The average velocity was 72.3 mph. Top was 78, lowest was 60.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 12:10:05
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Just for the heck of it, looked into the 2016s. There were a total of 86 kids listed in the database that are from Ga. and are listed as a pitcher. I didn't go through all of them, that's way over the top, but I did a search for the kids that threw 80+. There were 7 of them (or 8%). The hardest was 85 mph.
So, there are your Georgia FB velocities for kids around 14 years old. And I would tend to think that the kids that go to PG tournaments are usually the better kids with some kind of dream of going to the next level.
When you talk about kids throwing upper 80's or 90 at this age, they are freaks of nature. I wouldn't use that as a measuring stick for how hard my kid is throwing. Keep working hard and build that velocity up over time. Doesn't matter until they get to their junior year anyway. |
Edited by - bballman on 09/07/2012 12:16:11 |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2012 : 23:32:34
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| we had a 13U play 14, hit 80 at PG. we had him at 81 a couple weeks earlier (top velo). We saw 8 guys hit 80+ throughout the spring. We had 2 that topped out at 81. We had another at 79.In PG we saw 6 guys throw 80. We had a lefty top out at 82. Most MAJ guys are 74-82. Most AAA guys are 68-76, |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 08:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sward
we had a 13U play 14, hit 80 at PG. we had him at 81 a couple weeks earlier (top velo). We saw 8 guys hit 80+ throughout the spring. We had 2 that topped out at 81. We had another at 79.In PG we saw 6 guys throw 80. We had a lefty top out at 82. Most MAJ guys are 74-82. Most AAA guys are 68-76,
So what is the fastest you have seen from a 14u? For a 14u to say they are one of the fastest in the state, what do you think they need to hit? Using a real gun in a game situation. (Just asking, We still have some work to do.) |
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sports_junkie
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 09:43:08
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| You never know with the gun used or weather conditions, etc but the "fastest in state" at 14U will probably be in mid to upper 80s range this year maybe even hitting 90 under ideal conditions. Several players will be in mid 80s. |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2012 : 13:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sports_junkie
You never know with the gun used or weather conditions, etc but the "fastest in state" at 14U will probably be in mid to upper 80s range this year maybe even hitting 90 under ideal conditions. Several players will be in mid 80s.
upper 80's? at 14... I won't believe it. That means 86 and up, unless he is already 15 and over 200 pounds. There aren't many high school pitchers throwing upper 80's and you are talking about 14 year olds. Would love to hear about it though and would go watch this kid pitch if he does. Someone should keep us updated on who you see and what radar is being used with weather conditions. |
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cop311
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2012 : 14:11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by bkball
quote:
Originally posted by sports_junkie
You never know with the gun used or weather conditions, etc but the "fastest in state" at 14U will probably be in mid to upper 80s range this year maybe even hitting 90 under ideal conditions. Several players will be in mid 80s.
upper 80's? at 14... I won't believe it. That means 86 and up, unless he is already 15 and over 200 pounds. There aren't many high school pitchers throwing upper 80's and you are talking about 14 year olds. Would love to hear about it though and would go watch this kid pitch if he does. Someone should keep us updated on who you see and what radar is being used with weather conditions.
Well he did say " fastest in the state" which means he is the only one. Not too hard to look him up on PG. He's 14 and not 200lbs either. Far as I know he's on the 14u Astros this year so take a look. Hit 85 this summer according to PG
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Edited by - cop311 on 09/12/2012 14:37:05 |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2012 : 14:21:52
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That'd be mid-80's, not upper 80's.
And if he's the fastest in the state, then there isn't a single 14u player hitting upper 80's.
So I would say bkball is right on. |
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cop311
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2012 : 14:46:06
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| Not to argue the point but he did say " this year" meaning during his 14 u season. And if he hit 85 the summer of 13u all he needs to do by next summer is hit 1 mph faster to hit 86. Will he do it? Who knows? Be fun to see though. The reality is though most kids will be high 60s to high 70s. The most successful ones will be able to mix it up consistently. If only mine was in that upper end velocity wise... |
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DBL PLAY
34 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2012 : 23:52:16
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| Since you brought up the Astros I looked at all of their pitchers that were listed on the PG website and it appears that a lot of that team sets at low to mid 80's. Should be a sight to see what Coach Roberts has put together for East Cobb and the great state of Georgia for the 2013 season. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 08:22:18
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| I think that perfect game numbers are juiced up. I saw the same pitcher at team usa tryout and he topped out at 81, he was not throwing in the mid 80s. The kids facing him were not being blown away. Maybe has something to do with the guns being used. |
Edited by - jalex on 09/18/2012 07:41:07 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 10:48:27
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| PG's numbers are not juiced up. I have stood behind the PG guys at MANY, MANY tournaments and watched the gun. I then follow up when the numbers are posted for that tournament and they are always accurate. Done it for my son in 8 PG tournaments and 2 PG showcases. Also for almost everyone of his teammates and any kids on teams we played that we knew during that time. I have never seen them post on the website something that I didn't see myself while watching. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 15:06:33
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| bball, I know you like facts and research. So go and take a look at the east coast pro showcase. For those who do not know this is a showcase where the top prospects attend from the east coast. I think there were several kids that max out at 92 or 93 miles per hour. If you go to perfect game and look at those same kids on perfect game, you will see a constant theme of about several miles per hour less than what the pro scouts record. It is also the same theme when it comes to the 60 yd times. I do not know what this is about, maybe its the guns. If you cant find I will come back with the facts. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 16:26:35
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I don't have the time right now to look all this up. I will take your word that there are kids that threw at the East Coast Pro Showcase and their velocities were a couple of mph higher than at PG. If that is the case, then the ECPS numbers would be juiced, not the PG numbers. I don't think that is necessarily true though. A pitcher's velocity will tend to go up and down depending on how they are feeling, how much rest they have had, how hot it is outside, etc. For instance, the ECPS looks like it is held upstate NY in August. The PG tournaments are generally held in Georgia in July. I would say that it is a lot hotter in Georgia than it was in upstate NY. That heat will take the energy out of anyone. Also, the PG 18u WWBA Tournament ends July 6th. For those kids going to the ECPS, they may have taken the 3 weeks between these events to rest up and get ready to show their best at the ECPS, where as they may have played 3 or 4 tournaments in a row prior to the WWBA tourney in early July.
My point is, all these places use the same guns (Stalker). I seriously don't believe that anyone is "juicing" numbers. I think there are always variables in how someone throws and performs on a particular day. All that needs to be taken into account. Just sayin. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 16:29:37
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This info is from Johnathan Mayo, MLB Pro Blog.
Ok guys here is my unscientific research on the differences between perfect game and mlb scouts evaluations. If you see n/a, that means perfect game use the pro showcase number on their website, I made this deduction based on the date that the number was listed, which was 8/1/12. That was the same date as the pro showcase. Also n/i means no perfect game info.
60 yard
I was only able to compare 5 of the 11 top runners because either perfect game use the pro showcase time or there was no perfect game info on the player. What you will notice is that the perfect game time is always faster. Its probably just a coincidence but still pretty interesting. One would think that these quality of players would bring their best game to the biggest showcase of their baseball careers. Also, most of the PG times were pretty old. One would think that the times would be faster.
FB Top Velocity
There were only 7 guys that threw in the 90s.
Again, I am noticing the same trend. For some odd reason perfect game speeds are faster. And it appears that on average they are at least 4 mph faster.
I say this is unscientific because the sampling is so small but these were the best of the best.
So bball that is why I made that statement, but you must admit that it is odd that none of these guys put up better numbers than their perfect game numbers. Just some food for thought.
Carlos Williams, Covington HS. Tenn 6.40 PG 6.18
Stephen Wrenn Jr.,Walton HS, Ga.: 6.40 n/a
Matthew McPhearson, Riverdale Baptist School : 6.50 n/i
Justin Holt, Gulfport HS, : 6.56 n/a
Silento Sayles, Port Gibson HS, Miss.: 6.58 n/a
Clint Frazier, Loganville HS: 6.60 6.42 Benjamin Dluzio, The First Academy, Mich.: 6.60 n/i
Terry McClure, Riverwood International Chart.: 6.63 PG 6.48
Connor Heady, North Oldham, Kent.: 6.63 PG 6.52
Alexander Krupa, Greenwood Community HS, Ind.: 6.64 n/i
Austin Meadows, Grayson HS: 6.64 PG 6.31
MLB Blog:
There wasn’t a ton of velocity — no one creating a buzz with crazy radar gun readings, but there were several pitchers who were sitting in the low 90s. The top velo guys:
Clinton Hollon, Woodford County, KY: 93 mph PG: 97
Connor Jones, Great Bridge HS, Va.: 93 mph n/a
Jordan Sheffield, Tullahoma HS, Tenn: 91 mph PG: 95
Timothy McDonald, Village Christian A: 92 mph n/a
Tyler Danish, Durant HS, Fla.: 92 mph n/a
Chris Oakley, St. Augustine Prep, NJ: 90 mph PG: 95
Mark Armstrong, Clarence HS, NY: 90 mph PG: 92
MLB blog:
More tomorrow…
And, finally, there were a few guys who’s overall performances did make scouts notice. Here are some hitters who were mentioned by scouts I spoke to:
Austin Meadows, OF, Grayson HS, Ga.
Clint Frazier, OF, Loganville HS, Ga.
Jacob Heyward, OF, Eagles Landing HS, Ga.
Oscar Mercado, SS, Gaither HS, Fla.
Thomas Milone, OF, Masuk HS, Conn.
Joseph Dudek Jr, 1B, Christian Brothers Academy, NJ
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Edited by - jalex on 09/13/2012 16:37:37 |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2012 : 10:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by cop311
Well he did say " fastest in the state" which means he is the only one. Not too hard to look him up on PG. He's 14 and not 200lbs either. Far as I know he's on the 14u Astros this year so take a look. Hit 85 this summer according to PG
I think you are selling this kid a little short. He's probably the best player in the COUNTRY in his age group, not just the state. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he hit 85 or better this year. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2012 : 12:53:15
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| Jalex, looks like this guy is saying the PG velocities are faster than ECPS. Your last post said that the PG velocities were lower. Either way, there seems to be a difference. I certainly can't account for that. Like I said, all I know is that I have sat behind probably 100 pitchers with the radar guns going at PG events and cross checked with the recorded velocities on the website later and I have never seen a discrepency. I don't think it is the PG guns being "ramped up" or anything either because I have seen the PG guns along side college scout guns and they are virtually identical. Usually within 1mph. Never been to an ECPS event, so I can't speak for them. I would imagine that they are also using the Stalker guy. |
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