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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2018 : 11:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Punisher
My unsolicited advice on 12U playing up to 14U (from my experience with older sons). In general, Don't be in too big a hurry to jump on the big field. I have seen numerous kids injure themselves trying to throw the ball farther and swing bats that their bodies are not ready for yet. Without knowing your son, it is impossible for me to say, because it depends more on physical maturity and size than on age. There are certainly advantages to playing up, if they are early bloomers and/or physically ready. Good luck to your son.
When I was 12 we played on a 60/90 and swung wood bats with kids of all sizes. Wasn't a problem then, should not be a problem now. Why are many falling into this state of weakening our kids then wondering why they fail? Injuries are a part of the game. Adjust or quit. Can't play baby ball on a small field forever. Get used to playing on a normal field, adjust you game to fit and let everyone else play catch-up. Why prolong the inevitable?
With that. I would never hold my kid back for athletic reasons. Just sending the wrong message about what's really important. If his grades start to slack, I take everything away. Doesn't matter how good of an athlete his is. That's my message. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2018 : 11:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Never had a hold back experience with me or my son. As someone who is bit older than most of you all, holding back meant short bus. My kid is on track to graduate at 17yo just like his parents. While kids his age are playing 12u, he is playing 14u and holding his own.
You played your kid up, errr, down. Good for you, it's working out, not every case is the same. I know many that have did the same with different results as there is a peak point some reach earlier than others. It just seems like yours was slow to develop with his original class in more categories than just athletically (your words, not mines), so holding him back was the best option.
Punisher, you can and should do whatever you think is best for your kid.
As for me, I would rather have my 12-year-old kid play for a 12U team that: 1) competes at a high level (AAA+), 2) wins more than loses, and 3) isn't coached by me. But like I said, you do whatever you think is best for your kid.
Awesome. Wins or Loses at 12u dont matter. 2 more years. We will wait on you. I'm just happy no 1.15 bats at this level. |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/01/2018 14:17:36 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2018 : 11:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I would agree we should all do what's best for us. Again I'm addressing strictly those who would make a middle schooler repeat a grade. I just hope those boys are ultimately the ones making that choice and not overzealous parents. I asked my son about his thoughts...as much as he lives breathes and eats the sport, the look of horror he gave me over the prospect of repeating even a class he passed, let alone a grade, gave me everything I needed!
This is a parent decision 10000%. No kid is going to say to their parents "Hold me back to repeat classes so I can be the biggest and best athlete". |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/01/2018 14:17:47 |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2018 : 15:31:33
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Agree, the kids are not saying give me an extra year of school.
It's the parents trying to game the system, and then one one does it others follow "Keeping up with the Jonses".
So lets break it down this way, if your kid is a July/Aug/Sept birthday, that is the grey area here AND you hold the kid back for whatever reason prior to the 2nd/3rd grade, then nobody has an issue or should judge. Those are likely academic, social maturity or other issues. However, once you start getting in the 4th or 5th grade one would question what took so long and why now. However, from 6th grade on most will call it what it is, someone trying to gain advantage for their child, level the playing field or reset the bar. I think the solution for this is real easy and would deter some of this. Have a clock on each student or athlete that starts day one when they enter 1st grade. You have a 12 year athletic clock starting in the 1st grade or a 10 year clock in the 3rd grade. Then it becomes a moot point. Hold your kids back all you want at that point when the clock expires they are no longer eligible to play.
Personally, I could never understand when a 5' 10" 185 lb one grade level higher old, physically overpowers a 4' 8' 85lb underclassman, why the parents of the larger child get so excited, that should happen, but I love it when the script flips and david takes it to goliath.
Bottom Line: Instead of spending money and wasting time on holding your kid back, why don't you invest that time and money in lessons, training and or practice and simply work to get better, rather than lower the bar, because that is what you are doing to your child, you are saying, kid you aren't good enough so let me lower that bar for you so you think you can win.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I would agree we should all do what's best for us. Again I'm addressing strictly those who would make a middle schooler repeat a grade. I just hope those boys are ultimately the ones making that choice and not overzealous parents. I asked my son about his thoughts...as much as he lives breathes and eats the sport, the look of horror he gave me over the prospect of repeating even a class he passed, let alone a grade, gave me everything I needed!
This is a parent decision 10000%. No kid is going to say to their parents "Hold me back to repeat classes so I can be the biggest and best athlete".
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2018 : 16:20:56
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This is my last post on this. Most kids that I know who were “held back” did not do it to beat up on younger kids. Most in fact , play at a higher level, or with top teams against similar kids.
Assume that you are correct, and it’s done to get an advantage. So what? Parents do all sorts of things to give thier kids an advantage. When you get to HS you wont believe what some do to try to help thier kids. Everyone keeps saying how it is detrimental, but I personally have never heard from anyone who held thier child back that actually regrets it or wishes they hadn’t.
As I stated earlier, I held my oldest back in 5th grade. I won’t say that at the time he was 100% convinced. Probably more like 75%. But if you ask him today he is 110% glad we did.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2018 : 18:16:14
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Well, if any parents were on the fence about holding their kid back, after reading this they are probably leaning towards doing it; especially, since the nessayers are saying “if you hold your kid back, then they will be beating up on their new grade”.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2018 : 09:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Agree, the kids are not saying give me an extra year of school.
It's the parents trying to game the system, and then one one does it others follow "Keeping up with the Jonses".
So lets break it down this way, if your kid is a July/Aug/Sept birthday, that is the grey area here AND you hold the kid back for whatever reason prior to the 2nd/3rd grade, then nobody has an issue or should judge. Those are likely academic, social maturity or other issues. However, once you start getting in the 4th or 5th grade one would question what took so long and why now. However, from 6th grade on most will call it what it is, someone trying to gain advantage for their child, level the playing field or reset the bar. I think the solution for this is real easy and would deter some of this. Have a clock on each student or athlete that starts day one when they enter 1st grade. You have a 12 year athletic clock starting in the 1st grade or a 10 year clock in the 3rd grade. Then it becomes a moot point. Hold your kids back all you want at that point when the clock expires they are no longer eligible to play.
Personally, I could never understand when a 5' 10" 185 lb one grade level higher old, physically overpowers a 4' 8' 85lb underclassman, why the parents of the larger child get so excited, that should happen, but I love it when the script flips and david takes it to goliath.
Bottom Line: Instead of spending money and wasting time on holding your kid back, why don't you invest that time and money in lessons, training and or practice and simply work to get better, rather than lower the bar, because that is what you are doing to your child, you are saying, kid you aren't good enough so let me lower that bar for you so you think you can win.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I would agree we should all do what's best for us. Again I'm addressing strictly those who would make a middle schooler repeat a grade. I just hope those boys are ultimately the ones making that choice and not overzealous parents. I asked my son about his thoughts...as much as he lives breathes and eats the sport, the look of horror he gave me over the prospect of repeating even a class he passed, let alone a grade, gave me everything I needed!
This is a parent decision 10000%. No kid is going to say to their parents "Hold me back to repeat classes so I can be the biggest and best athlete".
My new hero! There is no advantage when everyone is doing it. Having a time clock from 3rd grade sounds like a great idea. But parents want to see where little Johnny is athletically before holding back. I'm sure the kissing cousins would disagree. This just gives a lot a people a view of what some parents do to gain any advantage possible. It's even worse politically. If my kid could graduate at 15, I would let him and not hold him back for a sport. |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/02/2018 13:09:23 |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2018 : 21:24:22
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Punishers don't know if I'm a hero, but will take it...
We just grew up in a different era.
Where I grew up the issue back in the day everyone was trying to play up not down. And where it got political is you had to get actual approval to play up, that is really be good enough to play up not just have daddy pull strings for you. And back then you never wanted to be labeled a play down.
The adults always make a mess of it all, and don't even get started on the politics part.
Punishers, we just have a different mindset than most. I firmly believe we need to challenge and push them to their limits and beyond, physically, mentally, and academically. Yeah they might fall or stumble along the way and not look perfect at times, but they will come out the other end better and stronger. I am not only preparing my son for High School Baseball, but for LIFE and it's ups and downs. We forget that Baseball and Sports teach so many LIFE lessons.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Agree, the kids are not saying give me an extra year of school.
It's the parents trying to game the system, and then one one does it others follow "Keeping up with the Jonses".
So lets break it down this way, if your kid is a July/Aug/Sept birthday, that is the grey area here AND you hold the kid back for whatever reason prior to the 2nd/3rd grade, then nobody has an issue or should judge. Those are likely academic, social maturity or other issues. However, once you start getting in the 4th or 5th grade one would question what took so long and why now. However, from 6th grade on most will call it what it is, someone trying to gain advantage for their child, level the playing field or reset the bar. I think the solution for this is real easy and would deter some of this. Have a clock on each student or athlete that starts day one when they enter 1st grade. You have a 12 year athletic clock starting in the 1st grade or a 10 year clock in the 3rd grade. Then it becomes a moot point. Hold your kids back all you want at that point when the clock expires they are no longer eligible to play.
Personally, I could never understand when a 5' 10" 185 lb one grade level higher old, physically overpowers a 4' 8' 85lb underclassman, why the parents of the larger child get so excited, that should happen, but I love it when the script flips and david takes it to goliath.
Bottom Line: Instead of spending money and wasting time on holding your kid back, why don't you invest that time and money in lessons, training and or practice and simply work to get better, rather than lower the bar, because that is what you are doing to your child, you are saying, kid you aren't good enough so let me lower that bar for you so you think you can win.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I would agree we should all do what's best for us. Again I'm addressing strictly those who would make a middle schooler repeat a grade. I just hope those boys are ultimately the ones making that choice and not overzealous parents. I asked my son about his thoughts...as much as he lives breathes and eats the sport, the look of horror he gave me over the prospect of repeating even a class he passed, let alone a grade, gave me everything I needed!
This is a parent decision 10000%. No kid is going to say to their parents "Hold me back to repeat classes so I can be the biggest and best athlete".
My new hero! There is no advantage when everyone is doing it. Having a time clock from 3rd grade sounds like a great idea. But parents want to see where little Johnny is athletically before holding back. I'm sure the kissing cousins would disagree. This just gives a lot a people a view of what some parents do to gain any advantage possible. It's even worse politically. If my kid could graduate at 15, I would let him and not hold him back for a sport.
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 09:21:23
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| I too agree wholeheartedly with grinding it out despite your circumstance. If nothing else it builds character and teaches overcoming failure (baseball is failure much of the time any way). To each his own, but when you look at the bigger picture how much of this advantage gaining results in being drafted and evem then how many make it to the show? If you've got that level of talent everyone sees it early on, whether he's big/small/older/younger. No advantage needed. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 10/03/2018 09:47:17 |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 09:21:25
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Then that must make you two butt buddies.
You know what's wrong with the world today and in politics, a few trying to tell everyone else what to do and what is best for them. What a parent does for their child is no one's business but their own.
You can't just give your opinion, you have to make it personal because someone disagrees with you. We see that a lot in the politics of today as well. |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 09:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Punishers don't know if I'm a hero, but will take it...
We just grew up in a different era.
Where I grew up the issue back in the day everyone was trying to play up not down. And where it got political is you had to get actual approval to play up, that is really be good enough to play up not just have daddy pull strings for you. And back then you never wanted to be labeled a play down.
The adults always make a mess of it all, and don't even get started on the politics part.
Punishers, we just have a different mindset than most. I firmly believe we need to challenge and push them to their limits and beyond, physically, mentally, and academically. Yeah they might fall or stumble along the way and not look perfect at times, but they will come out the other end better and stronger. I am not only preparing my son for High School Baseball, but for LIFE and it's ups and downs. We forget that Baseball and Sports teach so many LIFE lessons.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Agree, the kids are not saying give me an extra year of school.
It's the parents trying to game the system, and then one one does it others follow "Keeping up with the Jonses".
So lets break it down this way, if your kid is a July/Aug/Sept birthday, that is the grey area here AND you hold the kid back for whatever reason prior to the 2nd/3rd grade, then nobody has an issue or should judge. Those are likely academic, social maturity or other issues. However, once you start getting in the 4th or 5th grade one would question what took so long and why now. However, from 6th grade on most will call it what it is, someone trying to gain advantage for their child, level the playing field or reset the bar. I think the solution for this is real easy and would deter some of this. Have a clock on each student or athlete that starts day one when they enter 1st grade. You have a 12 year athletic clock starting in the 1st grade or a 10 year clock in the 3rd grade. Then it becomes a moot point. Hold your kids back all you want at that point when the clock expires they are no longer eligible to play.
Personally, I could never understand when a 5' 10" 185 lb one grade level higher old, physically overpowers a 4' 8' 85lb underclassman, why the parents of the larger child get so excited, that should happen, but I love it when the script flips and david takes it to goliath.
Bottom Line: Instead of spending money and wasting time on holding your kid back, why don't you invest that time and money in lessons, training and or practice and simply work to get better, rather than lower the bar, because that is what you are doing to your child, you are saying, kid you aren't good enough so let me lower that bar for you so you think you can win.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I would agree we should all do what's best for us. Again I'm addressing strictly those who would make a middle schooler repeat a grade. I just hope those boys are ultimately the ones making that choice and not overzealous parents. I asked my son about his thoughts...as much as he lives breathes and eats the sport, the look of horror he gave me over the prospect of repeating even a class he passed, let alone a grade, gave me everything I needed!
This is a parent decision 10000%. No kid is going to say to their parents "Hold me back to repeat classes so I can be the biggest and best athlete".
My new hero! There is no advantage when everyone is doing it. Having a time clock from 3rd grade sounds like a great idea. But parents want to see where little Johnny is athletically before holding back. I'm sure the kissing cousins would disagree. This just gives a lot a people a view of what some parents do to gain any advantage possible. It's even worse politically. If my kid could graduate at 15, I would let him and not hold him back for a sport.
You guys act like this decision is strictly either-or: Either you hold your kid back, OR you challenge and push them to get better. It's not either-or.
Like wareagle said, people don't hold their kids back so they can beat up on younger kids. That's stupid. They do it because the kid may be very young for their grade and/or behind in development somehow.
Yes, it could cause a kid to be less challenged academically. But even that is temporary, because it picks back up after one year of overlap (which could actually be helpful for a kid who is anything but advanced to begin with).
Otherwise -- physically, emotionally, athletically, etc. -- it's like having an extra senior year to develop before moving on to college or the workplace.
Bottom line is that everyone should do what they think is best for them and their kids. And those who choose not to hold their kid back are only able to speculate as to how it benefits or hurts kids or families that do it.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 09:50:49
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There was a kid in last years draft that was a 2018 grad, then he changed to a 2019 grad in 2017, then he changed back to a 2018 grad and went in the 1st round of last years draft. He did it for draft status, not to beat up on the younger grade.
Also, there are already age restrictions in High School as well as travel ball. I have been around a ball field my entire life and have never heard of someone not being allowed to play up, if you were good enough, it was encouraged. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 10:10:23
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Here is the typical ages for puberty in boys:
"The onset of puberty varies among individuals. Puberty usually occurs in girls between the ages of 10 and 14, while in boys it generally occurs later, between the ages of 12 and 16."
As you can see, if you have a kid that hits puberty at the later end of this age range, then he is at a huge disadvantage to the ones that hit it earlier. He would be in his junior and possible starting his senior year of high school. Not a lot of time considering most of the big D1's are pretty much done committing by junior year.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 11:29:22
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| We still talking about middle school hold backs who are academically proficient, Correct? |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 11:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Here is the typical ages for puberty in boys:
"The onset of puberty varies among individuals. Puberty usually occurs in girls between the ages of 10 and 14, while in boys it generally occurs later, between the ages of 12 and 16."
As you can see, if you have a kid that hits puberty at the later end of this age range, then he is at a huge disadvantage to the ones that hit it earlier. He would be in his junior and possible starting his senior year of high school. Not a lot of time considering most of the big D1's are pretty much done committing by junior year.
Most if not all big D1's still have scholarships left over. They do not put their whole pot on Jr commitments. They know some will go to the draft. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 12:32:48
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They may make room for a "special" player that came out of nowhere (could be the kid that was held back by smart parents).
How do they do that? A couple of ways, they can decommit a lesser player or reduce the scholarships of others to make room, but one thing is for sure, they are not holding scholarships hoping a diamond will fall in their lap because most of the top players will have already committed by their junior year. They will also be bringing in Junior college transfers, in addition to returning players.
When you only have 11.7 scholarships to spread out among 27 players, it doesn't take long to run out of money. Also, I looked at the top 10 colleges as far as recruiting ranking by PG, they have on average 13.7 commits for their 2020 class already and we are not half way through the school year. |
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baseball713
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 12:57:57
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I didn't even know this (holding kids back on purpose) was a thing until we've been in the US for 15 years. Where my wife and I grew up, we aim to push our kids academically as much as possible, and athletics isn't even a consideration. My son has a Sept birthday. Instead of putting him on his grade level, we put him a grade level above. He has classmates that is 1 and 2 years older than him in his grade, and as much as 1 to 1.5 feet taller than him. He is small even compared with kids his age, much less compared to kids in his grade. He plays baseball with his age level bec of his size. He will probably struggle playing against kids in his grade (he already does struggle in middle school basketball and football). However, he is doing great when it comes to academics and socially. I can care less that he can't compete with his grade level athletically. Solid academics and work ethics is what will help him succeed in life, not excelling athletically. And if somehow his growth spurt kicks in later and he catches up with everyone in his grade, I figure that the years of having to work harder to compete with kids older than him would put him in a better spot when his size catches up.
BTW, I know of 4 families (some in his old baseball team) who purposely held their kids back during kindergarten purely for athletic purpose (wanting their kids to excel years later when their kids get to middle school and high school). They said so first hand to us. That's when we found out that this is a thing. I asked them what they would have done if their kids turned out to not be interested in sports. They didn't answer. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 14:07:45
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As was mentioned earlier, there are no guarantees.
Also, just because they are held back for sports, doesn't mean you don't care about academics. If you don't make the grades, you don't play. When you start talking to colleges, that is the first thing they ask, "How are your grades". |
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Elijah
26 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 19:45:53
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I love this topic. I will chime in just in case there are parents reading this thread that are considering this for their child.
Son has an August b-day. We gapped my son at the 8th-grade level. He went to a home/hybrid school for his gap year (still does). Yep, baseball gave me the idea. Other baseball parents that PM'd me to tell me their stories about their experiences is what sold me. Most of them went out of their way to tell me how thankful they were of their decision. Turns out that the extra year made a difference in their sons as young men, from education to leadership qualities to how they performed socially. I also like the idea of my son actually being in the grade where everyone is his actual age.
A baseball case can be made for us gapping him, but that would just draw the scowl of forums. Good arguments have already been made and ignored. It has been said before; parents have a unique ability to discern what is best for their situation.
Just speaking of my son, another year to mature and grow as a boy into a young man is appreciated. They will all be gone soon enough. So yeah, Shu, I'm happy to keep mine for an extra year. :)
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 20:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Elijah
I love this topic. I will chime in just in case there are parents reading this thread that are considering this for their child.
Son has an August b-day. We gapped my son at the 8th-grade level. He went to a home/hybrid school for his gap year (still does). Yep, baseball gave me the idea. Other baseball parents that PM'd me to tell me their stories about their experiences is what sold me. Most of them went out of their way to tell me how thankful they were of their decision. Turns out that the extra year made a difference in their sons as young men, from education to leadership qualities to how they performed socially. I also like the idea of my son actually being in the grade where everyone is his actual age.
A baseball case can be made for us gapping him, but that would just draw the scowl of forums. Good arguments have already been made and ignored. It has been said before; parents have a unique ability to discern what is best for their situation.
Just speaking of my son, another year to mature and grow as a boy into a young man is appreciated. They will all be gone soon enough. So yeah, Shu, I'm happy to keep mine for an extra year. :)
LoL |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2018 : 22:37:27
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Yep that is the point, but some are missing it. I know of at least 3 to 4 kids doing it in 7th or 8th grade. None of these kids are small, actually all are on the large or bigger side, very mature and most if not all are straight A students, most gifted or accelerated.
Don't know if they are doing it because of a PG profile, or hope it will get them a fraction of a baseball scholarship, or simply to let them be big man on campus. But it is definitely sports driven.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
We still talking about middle school hold backs who are academically proficient, Correct?
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 08:40:23
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Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
No, I think you are missing the point. It really doesn't matter when or why, It's their kid. In my experience the only ones that get upset are some of the ones that don't do it. I do not really know why they have a problem with what someone else does with their child.
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I have no problem with it. But quit telling me its wrong for mine, when I have actual experience to prove otherwise. Is it for everyone, NO. But its also not your job to judge.
The ones who argue against it the most, are usually the ones that are worried that their kid may be losing ground!
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Edited by - wareagle on 10/04/2018 09:20:04 |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 11:17:35
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| What I hear everyone saying is it boils down to how important it is to give your kid the best chance to go D1, or pro. I don't think anyone disputes holding one back who is very young, or struggling academically. But holding them back solely because we are ASSUMING they will be athletes when they are young, as I said earlier, is quite a presumption, or is it an expectation? |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 10/04/2018 11:41:58 |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 12:01:50
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Crazy
I honestly don't think it is about ASSUMING that they will be a good athlete. It is about KNOWING that it will give them and extra year to build confidence, maturity, etc. Even if they never play college ball or have the desire to play. It still gives them a better chance of being a successful high school player, or band member, or student, etc. If they are successful then there is a greater chance that they will remain involved in whatever activities they enjoy. If they remain involved in productive activities, then they have less time to find bad activities to be involved in.
The on going argument, that I have not seen any examples of, is that it will somehow lessen their drive or pushing themselves. I believe that some of that is innate in them, and some we instill in them. It has nothing to do with age or grade. Again I have never heard of anyone, that has had a bad experience with this that has actually done it.
The main potential downfall with holding them back as they get older is primarily social, and truly is a very personal thing with each individual kid. We surely are not capable of determining that for someone else's child.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 13:13:52
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This is not an easy decision for most, I am sure. There are a lot of factors that must be considered. Also, I seriously doubt very many people do this for sports reasons in kindergarten, that seems far fetched.
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Holding Kid Back a Grade for Athletic Purposes
