| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2018 : 13:19:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
No, I think you are missing the point. It really doesn't matter when or why, It's their kid. In my experience the only ones that get upset are some of the ones that don't do it. I do not really know why they have a problem with what someone else does with their child.
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I have no problem with it. But quit telling me its wrong for mine, when I have actual experience to prove otherwise. Is it for everyone, NO. But its also not your job to judge.
The ones who argue against it the most, are usually the ones that are worried that their kid may be losing ground!
No one is telling you it's wrong, but it's hard to respect someone who plays their kid down when they are academically proficient. It all starts at home. |
 |
|
|
oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 15:03:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
No, I think you are missing the point. It really doesn't matter when or why, It's their kid. In my experience the only ones that get upset are some of the ones that don't do it. I do not really know why they have a problem with what someone else does with their child.
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I have no problem with it. But quit telling me its wrong for mine, when I have actual experience to prove otherwise. Is it for everyone, NO. But its also not your job to judge.
The ones who argue against it the most, are usually the ones that are worried that their kid may be losing ground!
No one is telling you it's wrong, but it's hard to respect someone who plays their kid down when they are academically proficient. It all starts at home.
You still don't get it, do you? Holding a kid back does not equal playing a kid down -- or at least it doesn't have to.
You want to know what I think is hard to respect? A parent who coaches his own 12-year-old kid on an A-level, sub-.500 14U team, and then touts the merits of doing so while bashing nearly everything else (except swing wood bats) others do because they think it's what's best for them.
|
|
|
|
Elijah
26 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 17:34:13
|
Lol. I am not offended by those that disagree with my decision. However, if there are some of you on the fence about this subject, do a search in HSBaseballWeb for this topic. You'll get the same style of argument, but maybe a little more info to draw from. Do not worry about people knowing better than you do. Those people never go away.
Of course, there are also people that surface just at the time you need an answer to something important. Love those people. They give of their knowledge and I am thankful for them at least twice weekly. If you have a son that projects, it is pretty much impossible to navigate your next moves for him without the help of others. My rule is to try and be someone that they wouldn't mind taking the time to give advice to. If you have a child in the 12u range, I would be asking more questions and doing more listening. |
|
|
|
Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 18:34:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
No, I think you are missing the point. It really doesn't matter when or why, It's their kid. In my experience the only ones that get upset are some of the ones that don't do it. I do not really know why they have a problem with what someone else does with their child.
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I have no problem with it. But quit telling me its wrong for mine, when I have actual experience to prove otherwise. Is it for everyone, NO. But its also not your job to judge.
The ones who argue against it the most, are usually the ones that are worried that their kid may be losing ground!
No one is telling you it's wrong, but it's hard to respect someone who plays their kid down when they are academically proficient. It all starts at home.
You still don't get it, do you? Holding a kid back does not equal playing a kid down -- or at least it doesn't have to.
You want to know what I think is hard to respect? A parent who coaches his own 12-year-old kid on an A-level, sub-.500 14U team, and then touts the merits of doing so while bashing nearly everything else (except swing wood bats) others do because they think it's what's best for them.
You must play your kid down? Called it. I'm not the coach and I'll let you think it's a sub .500 team. I'm only concerned with mines anyway. I see your short sightedness. Teams don't get drafted or scholarships, Players do. Then again i'm not holding my kid back for a sport. They can hold back if they want to. Easy to say I'm bashing when your kid is the one with a full beard and playing up against some smaller kids who haven't grown pubic hairs, all because he was held back cause parents felt he could not hang with his class.
Kid cant hang with class, hold back. Is that where we are now? |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/04/2018 19:57:14 |
|
|
|
baseball713
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 19:37:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Crazy
I honestly don't think it is about ASSUMING that they will be a good athlete. It is about KNOWING that it will give them and extra year to build confidence, maturity, etc. Even if they never play college ball or have the desire to play. It still gives them a better chance of being a successful high school player, or band member, or student, etc. If they are successful then there is a greater chance that they will remain involved in whatever activities they enjoy. If they remain involved in productive activities, then they have less time to find bad activities to be involved in.
The on going argument, that I have not seen any examples of, is that it will somehow lessen their drive or pushing themselves. I believe that some of that is innate in them, and some we instill in them. It has nothing to do with age or grade. Again I have never heard of anyone, that has had a bad experience with this that has actually done it.
The main potential downfall with holding them back as they get older is primarily social, and truly is a very personal thing with each individual kid. We surely are not capable of determining that for someone else's child.
People holding their kids back is confusing to me, but it doesn't bother me. It's fascinating for me to understand why people feel strongly about it. I think why some people are bothered with it is that it seems to go against their sense of fair play. For a kid that is held back to have an extra year to build confidence and maturity, and for this to give the kid a better chance of being a successful high school player, it's going to be always in comparison with some other kids in the class. If most of the kids in his class were not held back, then your kid will gain that extra year of confidence and maturity, and be a better high school player compared to (and maybe at the expense of) the other kids that were not held back. If everyone held their kids back, then your kid will lose this advantage, would he not? So I think there is a sense that holding kids back lowers the bar for these specific kids, while it keeps the bar the same for other kids who are not held back. |
|
|
|
Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 23:22:35
|
| You guys..I have said over and over I am ONLY talking about those who make academically SUCCESSFUL, middle school, not young, kids repeat a grade just for sports, OR for younger kids, keeping them back solely (I said solely) based on the assumption of sports. I think MANY would rightfully wait for those July and August kindergartners to be the oldest, not the youngest, for many reasons, not just sports. What I'm getting at are those who have older kids who are not superstars and who think that extra year will make them into superstars, now being men among boys, those types of kids who I STILL see dragging out to the field with gung ho dad egging them on, and the kid probably wishing they were anywhere else. These scenarios probably don't even apply to 99% of the people who post here. I just mean in general...it's more of that mindset of, if we keep Johnny back and he grows everything will be leveled out. etc etc. to the detriment of the kid who is now almost 20 as a college freshman and STILL not D1 material. These are the cases I'm commenting on. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 10/05/2018 08:50:40 |
|
|
|
wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2018 : 23:56:39
|
Baseball 713
Well thought out response and I don’t disagree with the logic. I still believe that Sept1 is just an arbitrary date and within reason parents should be able to determine how that school date works for thier family. If my sons birthsday was after sept 1, I personally would probably not hold him back a full year. As it stands I actually held him back a month. I don’t really see the big deal. I can say with almost certainty, the majority of the kids that I know that have gotten Baseball scholarships have been the older kids in thier class.
Punisher
Good luck to your son, I hope that you aren’t as much of a douche in person as you come across on this forum. |
|
|
|
RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 01:22:58
|
I think you are on point, it is a since of fairness for most, and yes all of us can technically hold our kids back to keep pace, but that is a ridiculous statement for one to say, as it's not realistic. Its what the hold back parents say to justify or not feel guilty about what they are doing. Bottom line is yes, they are lowering the bar and possibly cheating the other younger smaller kids who were not held back simply so their kid can have an advantage or perceived advantage, but then get up set if someone points this out to them or someone else.
For giggles today on the way to the fields I asked my son, if he wanted to stay back, he was perplexed that I would even ask him this question. He responded why would anyone want to do that. This is from the mouth of a 12/13 year old. He basically said, he would rather work harder and practice more than to do an extra year of school. He went on to say why would I want to play weaker competition, I want to play the tougher competition so I get better, how come this is easy for a 12 year old to see, but grown adults are blinded to it.
[/quote]
People holding their kids back is confusing to me, but it doesn't bother me. It's fascinating for me to understand why people feel strongly about it. I think why some people are bothered with it is that it seems to go against their sense of fair play. For a kid that is held back to have an extra year to build confidence and maturity, and for this to give the kid a better chance of being a successful high school player, it's going to be always in comparison with some other kids in the class. If most of the kids in his class were not held back, then your kid will gain that extra year of confidence and maturity, and be a better high school player compared to (and maybe at the expense of) the other kids that were not held back. If everyone held their kids back, then your kid will lose this advantage, would he not? So I think there is a sense that holding kids back lowers the bar for these specific kids, while it keeps the bar the same for other kids who are not held back.
[/quote] |
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 06:54:00
|
Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.
Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.
|
|
|
|
hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:17:11
|
As I’ve said numerous times, to each his own.
There’s no guaranteeing anything if a kid is held back but I have seen kids gain an advantage in PG tournaments because of grad year, not age requirements. Two summers ago my son’s 14U team was playing up in the 15U WWBA. A national team they were competing against had a kid who had just turned 17 years-old on a 15U team. I know that’s not the norm but since there aren’t any age restrictions, I think this trend will continue.
It’s been around in football for a while as well because colleges don’t care how old a kid is. Example, Calvin Ridley is a rookie who turns 24 in December. Ezekiel Elliott just turned 23 and this is his third year in the league. I don’t know the circumstances of what Ridley’s parents did (none of my business) but I think it worked for their situation. Now, I also think that Ridley would have played in the league two years ago but maybe not a first rounder. Where it does get tricky from a baseball perspective is draft positioning. Players are compared against players their same age. I’m not talking about a month or two, I’m talking about kids who’ll be will turn 20 at some point during their freshman year. I think that’s why the kid mentioned in an earlier post reclassed up a year so his draft stock wouldn’t fall.
Again, to each his own. |
Edited by - hshuler on 10/05/2018 10:37:05 |
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:18:59
|
The kids that I know that were held back play at the highest level possible, most on the top teams in the country and the decision was made strictly on the basis of college recruiting. For whatever reason, they were not getting the interest from colleges that they were looking/hoping for.
Again, all of this, like other topics on this board are perceived differently based on the level of play your kid plays at. When you play at the highest level of travel ball, I don't care if you hold your kid back for 3 years, there will be very little "beating up" on that group of players. |
|
|
|
baseball713
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:27:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
Baseball 713
Well thought out response and I don’t disagree with the logic. I still believe that Sept1 is just an arbitrary date and within reason parents should be able to determine how that school date works for thier family. If my sons birthsday was after sept 1, I personally would probably not hold him back a full year. As it stands I actually held him back a month. I don’t really see the big deal. I can say with almost certainty, the majority of the kids that I know that have gotten Baseball scholarships have been the older kids in thier class.
Punisher
Good luck to your son, I hope that you aren’t as much of a douche in person as you come across on this forum.
If it's up to me, I would rather the official rule be something like "if birthday is from June to Aug, then parents have the option based on what they think is best for their kids." I think having this clearly as an option takes away the notion that parents are holding back their kids and it lessens the sense that it's not fair and that parents are going around the rules. Of course, parents of kids with May birthday would now start complaining and they would be the one holding back their kids. It would be a never ending cycle. |
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 09:30:32
|
Also, while this may help in high school baseball, I assure you the parents that I know didn't even consider that. Even if some parents do hold their kids back for high school ball (which I don't understand), there are a wide range of ages in high school baseball. If your son is a freshman and makes varsity, then he will be playing against 17 and 18 year olds all the time.
High school baseball will do very little to get you committed, but if you don't perform, it can certainly hurt your chances and draft status. |
|
|
|
baseball713
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 10:21:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.
Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.
I gave up worrying about puberty as that is out of my control. It's no different from the question of genetics. I have no control if other kids has better genetics (i.e. taller parents, etc) than mine. If someone's kids hit puberty faster and dominates in sports, good for them and I'll just hope that we get that kid on our team to make our team stronger. If my kid hits puberty later (which he is), then I tell him to focus on working hard to just keep up and be able to hang in there. If and when his puberty hits, then the fact that he has to work harder would put him ahead of the game. To put it a different way, I tell him that he should feel bad for those that hit puberty earlier and are dominating right now as they have their own challenge of overcoming the temptation of not working as hard or not working on their technique and just rely on dominating due to their size and strength. |
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 10:57:59
|
From the GHSA By-Laws:
"1.30 - AGE
To be eligible to participate in interscholastic activities, a student must not have reached his 19th birthday prior to
May 1st, preceding his year of participation."
|
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 11:35:23
|
713
You are correct, there are a lot of things out of our control, so we have to maximize what is.
So, if your kid is late hitting puberty, you can hold him back or not, that's a personal family decision. Likewise, genetics plays a role certainly. So, you send him to lessons, speed/agility, strength training and hope by doing so it helps him compete. But if you do send him to these things, are you just trying to beat up on the kids that are not doing them or is it their fault that they are not being proactive?
Eventually, it all evens out and age and puberty are no longer issues. |
|
|
|
RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 12:31:51
|
Exactly,
And its those kids that at 6 through 12 dominate due to puberty or size, then all of a sudden struggle at 13/14 and are held back because the big field start exposing things such as lack of fundamentals etc.
It's an interesting issue because each situation is different, there are some that its legit being held back and then there are some doing it because they can't handle the fact they just don't dominate anymore or worse the case where someone has convinced the kid and or parent that they will get a scholly or higher draft pick because of it (selling a dream). If someone is good enough they really don't need to be held back.
I guess the real question in my mind is how much of this is the parents driving the decision and how much the kids? And who is the benefit for the Kid or the Parent? I really don't see any difference in this than "Daddy Ball" in the younger years. I personally think it's an attempt for the parents to try to "control" the situation in any manner they can versus letting the kid go out on their own and let the chips fall where they may.
Physically my kid would be the perfect example to hold him back, size, maturity everything. But, I would never do that and he would never want that and doesn't prepare him for real life outside of baseball as an adult. He plays at a high level too and yes unless puberty hits soon, the challenges will be greater and greater. But players like Pedroia, Altuve and others show these kids, you can do it, keep grinding if you really want it. If one day he cant play the game anymore (and it happens to everyone) then that is life, it will hurt and be disappointing but it will come one day. We should be focusing on raising leaders and good young men on and off the field and focus on academics, as for 99.5% of us our kids no matter how good they are now, will not play beyond College, and probably for 90% or more on this board the kids won't play beyond High School.
So, there are some legit reasons to hold a kid back, I think I and everyone get that. However, everyone of us know whether or not one wants to admit it, there are more and more everyday that don't need to be doing this actually doing this simply for gaining stature on the diamond. So, I agree to each their own, but when you are judged or called out don't whine or complain about it either.
quote:
Originally posted by baseball713
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Well, I have seen 12 yr. olds with facial hair and that is the point, they hit puberty early and have an advantage over the kids that do not. Will it equal out, yes it will, eventually and that extra year facilitates that equaling out process.
Again, every level of baseball, including high school, has an age limit. So, there is no argument that can be made that they are gaining this great advantage over the other players because of age. If anything, it is leveling the playing field because the younger kids that are being held back are closer in age to the others.
I gave up worrying about puberty as that is out of my control. It's no different from the question of genetics. I have no control if other kids has better genetics (i.e. taller parents, etc) than mine. If someone's kids hit puberty faster and dominates in sports, good for them and I'll just hope that we get that kid on our team to make our team stronger. If my kid hits puberty later (which he is), then I tell him to focus on working hard to just keep up and be able to hang in there. If and when his puberty hits, then the fact that he has to work harder would put him ahead of the game. To put it a different way, I tell him that he should feel bad for those that hit puberty earlier and are dominating right now as they have their own challenge of overcoming the temptation of not working as hard or not working on their technique and just rely on dominating due to their size and strength.
|
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 13:58:54
|
Since we will never know when Pedroia or Altuve hit puberty, using them as an example just because of their smaller stature really doesn't apply. They were going to be on the smaller side whether they hit puberty at 12 or 16.
Also, who are you to judge or call out anyone because they did something they thought was best for THEIR kid. |
|
|
|
wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 14:24:34
|
| Just one more angle on this. Look at the college rosters and see how many redshirt players there are. Some are injuries, or other reasons. But I think that A lot of them just needed the extra year. I’ll much rather take that extra year for free than at $30k + because my son was one of the younger ones in his class and not quite ready. |
|
|
|
RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 14:56:10
|
Doing something for their kid at the expense of other kids. Sounds like you are taking this too personally. It happens everywhere, not just holding back, but daddy ball, buddy ball etc..
Again are they doing whats best for their kid or their ego, so the kid has a better chance to succeed to pad their fragile parental egos?
Where do we draw the line? Hell lets just give them some PED's while we are at it?(total sarcasm here) Again Bama, I don't know or really care about your personal situation, but you sound a little defensive feeling guilty?
What I am saying, some of what people are doing is a stretch and unnecessary or misguided. Only time will tell. But the fact that people feel the way they feel means it's a touchy issue.
Again, me personally, I have ZERO problem with an early age hold back (elementary school). But when I see it in 7 or 8th grade, and not an extremely underdeveloped, poor academics or immature kid. I'm Sorry, I'll offend you and others and call B.S. on it.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Since we will never know when Pedroia or Altuve hit puberty, using them as an example just because of their smaller stature really doesn't apply. They were going to be on the smaller side whether they hit puberty at 12 or 16.
Also, who are you to judge or call out anyone because they did something they thought was best for THEIR kid.
|
|
|
|
RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 15:05:48
|
Not sure I get your argument on how sending a kid to lessons, speed/agility, strength training is the same as holding back and playing down.
One is putting in the hard work and effort, the other is trying to reset or level the playing field. Those are not similar arguments.
I will give you the argument that not every kid has those options available to them. That is true, but there is nothing to say that those kids couldn't put down fortnite or the phone and throw on their own, find a friend and hit on their own, or run and lift weights or do something on their own.
I respect the lesson, speed and strength parents and kids more as they are actually putting in the work, effort and grind. I give even more credit to the Dad and Kid that goes to the field on the weekend and put in extra work. I 100% love the 2 or 3 kids that go out on their own and work hard on their own to get better because THEY want it.
Don't know how you can even draw that parallel between the two.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
713
You are correct, there are a lot of things out of our control, so we have to maximize what is.
So, if your kid is late hitting puberty, you can hold him back or not, that's a personal family decision. Likewise, genetics plays a role certainly. So, you send him to lessons, speed/agility, strength training and hope by doing so it helps him compete. But if you do send him to these things, are you just trying to beat up on the kids that are not doing them or is it their fault that they are not being proactive?
Eventually, it all evens out and age and puberty are no longer issues.
|
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 16:34:58
|
My son started school a year later than he was supposed to, I say supposed to because that timeframe was placed by the government and not my wife and I. All kids are not the same, so having predetermined ages to start school will be detrimental for some kids; especially, down the road. Puberty is the biggest equalizer in sports, the kids that hit it early will be caught and a lot of the time they will be passed, but the kid has to have enough time to reach their full potential.
As far as offending me, I assure you, you do not. As you can probably see, I don’t like the government telling me what to do, so I would certainly take offense to you trying to do so.
Trying to give your kid an advantage comes in many forms, some forms you obviously agree with and others you do not. |
|
|
|
RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 17:44:07
|
And if you read the other posts you will see that I and others have no problems with that.
Also agree that Puberty is a big equalizer so we are on the same page here for the most part.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
My son started school a year later than he was supposed to, I say supposed to because that timeframe was placed by the government and not my wife and I. All kids are not the same, so having predetermined ages to start school will be detrimental for some kids; especially, down the road. Puberty is the biggest equalizer in sports, the kids that hit it early will be caught and a lot of the time they will be passed, but the kid has to have enough time to reach their full potential.
As far as offending me, I assure you, you do not. As you can probably see, I don’t like the government telling me what to do, so I would certainly take offense to you trying to do so.
Trying to give your kid an advantage comes in many forms, some forms you obviously agree with and others you do not.
|
|
|
|
bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2018 : 20:32:34
|
| Where we disagree is, I don’t feel it is my place to tell others how to raise their kids. Whatever decisions they make, they have to live with the consequences, good or bad. |
|
|
|
Elijah
26 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2018 : 15:20:45
|
A notable guy in youth/amateur baseball once wrote (paraphrasing) that the international players are about 10,000 ground balls ahead of American players.
You want something to be concerned about? Depending on your goals, there is always someone working harder and more efficiently. The greatest equalizer is knowing that no matter the size of your son or the grad year he plays in, someone is outworking you. This is how players get passed.
Natural talent is to be blessed. Having that "baseball" body is luck. Closing down a park multiple times a week is a choice. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Holding Kid Back a Grade for Athletic Purposes
