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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2019 :  09:54:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Had a discussion with a friend last night about the cost of travel baseball. This is what we came up with for 13u. We used the format of the most expensive tournaments (PG). Anyone want to dispute is welcome to do so. Where does the justification of these $3000 plus fees come from? Seem like many are gaining extra tax free income.

# of players 15
price per each player $1,700.00
total $25,500.00

15 Tourneys (PG @ 700) $10,500.00 $15,000.00

Uniforms @ 400 each $6,000.00 $9,000.00

Paid Coach $5,000.00 $4,000.00

LEFT OVER $4,000.00

dgersh22

169 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  11:36:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Punisher I agree with you it is out of hand, especially what it cost to play in tournaments. I do have to add a couple items to your list below.

1. Practice field cost
2. Supplies, can't practice without baseballs
3. team insurance (not that expensive)
4. Indoor practice facility (especially with the wet weather we have had)
5. Misc. stuff-umpires for scrimmages, score keeping site, etc.

It adds up. #1 is could be the big cost.
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Renegade44

207 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  12:27:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
<LEFT OVER $4,000.00>

Well at $1,700 cost I'm not as much worried about 4k leftover.

But how much is leftover at $4,500 per player? There is the real question??? You could be looking at $45,000 or even more.

But back to $4k leftover:
Practice field cost, some indoor winter time?
Maybe coach travel expense?
A few team training tools, 5 dozen baseballs, insurance, etc.
Probably down to ice cream social money afterwards.

Thought on a $45K leftover surplus??? Think college admission/recruiting scandal in news recently? How much donations from XYZ travelball does it take for a certain connected college to over recruit and load up the commit roster with certain academy players? As walkons, with fringe skills. Especially at mid to low D1 and below levels.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  18:00:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You don't think the 4k would not cover 1-4?
2. Balls are about $300 at most. 2 buckets of wilson balls
3. Team Insurance is about $150.

Game changer and Diamond Kast is about $100.
Umpires about $50 per game.

I find it useless to do a team indoor hitting session. Unless the indoor facility is big enough to do some infield work. No need to pay for that, when each player can do that on their own. My kid can see 300 pitches from me rather than 30 and wait in line for 2hrs.

What etc that the leftover 4k does not cover?

$1700 per player for 15 tourneys should be the max. Anything more than that is pure profit to the guys running it.

A friend of mines told me one coach told him he was paying $6k for uniforms for 8 players. Had to ask was the coach shopping at the MLB shop for authentic uniforms?

quote:
Originally posted by dgersh22

Punisher I agree with you it is out of hand, especially what it cost to play in tournaments. I do have to add a couple items to your list below.

1. Practice field cost
2. Supplies, can't practice without baseballs
3. team insurance (not that expensive)
4. Indoor practice facility (especially with the wet weather we have had)
5. Misc. stuff-umpires for scrimmages, score keeping site, etc.

It adds up. #1 is could be the big cost.


Edited by - Punishers on 05/19/2019 21:16:26
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  18:09:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No gripes about $1700 if playing 15 tourneys, but $4500 is just plain stupid.

Here you go. Someone is getting PAID!!!

# of players 15
price per each player 4500
total 67500

Tourneys (PG @ $700) 10500 57000

Uniforms (@ $400 each) 10000 47000

Paid Coach 5000 42000

Balls and Accessories 500 41500

LEFT OVER 41500



quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

<LEFT OVER $4,000.00>

Well at $1,700 cost I'm not as much worried about 4k leftover.

But how much is leftover at $4,500 per player? There is the real question??? You could be looking at $45,000 or even more.

But back to $4k leftover:
Practice field cost, some indoor winter time?
Maybe coach travel expense?
A few team training tools, 5 dozen baseballs, insurance, etc.
Probably down to ice cream social money afterwards.

Thought on a $45K leftover surplus??? Think college admission/recruiting scandal in news recently? How much donations from XYZ travelball does it take for a certain connected college to over recruit and load up the commit roster with certain academy players? As walkons, with fringe skills. Especially at mid to low D1 and below levels.


Edited by - Punishers on 05/19/2019 19:01:55
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Renegade44

207 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  20:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are a little short on your player math, think 20 player roster. That's the new way.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2019 :  22:54:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I need to quit my job and start hustling parents at what's left over below.

Here you go at 20 Players:

# of players 20
price per each player $4,500.00
total $90,000.00

Tourneys (PG @ $700) $10,500.00 $79,500.00

Uniforms (@ $400 each) $8,000.00 $71,500.00

Paid Coach $5,000.00 $66,500.00

Balls and Accessories $500.00 $66,000.00

LEFT OVER $66,000.00


quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44

You are a little short on your player math, think 20 player roster. That's the new way.


Edited by - Punishers on 05/20/2019 08:18:48
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wareagle

320 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2019 :  04:07:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Too many ex- players who never learned another skill or arenít ready to move on. . Now they are trying to make a full time living for a part time job. It works out for a few but most are just dragging out the end of their baseball careers. Parents that are paying that kind of money ($4500) need to re-evaluate.

I never paid more than $2000 and that was at 17u and I thought that was too much but the tournament fees were much more at 17u. Does the $ 4500 include spring/summer and fall or is fall baseball additional?

Edited by - wareagle on 05/20/2019 08:18:48
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turntwo

941 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2019 :  08:47:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle

Too many ex- players who never learned another skill or arenít ready to move on. . Now they are trying to make a full time living for a part time job. It works out for a few but most are just dragging out the end of their baseball careers. Parents that are paying that kind of money ($4500) need to re-evaluate.

I never paid more than $2000 and that was at 17u and I thought that was too much but the tournament fees were much more at 17u. Does the $ 4500 include spring/summer and fall or is fall baseball additional?



I'd say that's for 10-11 months of baseball...

Punishers- let me know where you can find a coach for $5K. Most around GA want (or expect) double that... Uniforms for $400 ea? Sure, sign me up. BUT, most 'academies' do all the ordering of these items... I relate it to, 'fox guarding the hen house'. But again, you're at their mercy. What about 'academy' FEES or dues. These could run $300+ per year, and are typically included in your player fee. 15 tourneys is a light schedule if you include fall. And no bigger tourneys? PG World Series, WWBA, Super25, BCS... These run ~$2K, AND remember that 'paid coach', but his travel expenses (hotel, gas or airfare) have to be paid... So at $1,700 per payer, I'm seeing the team in the red. Especially if you're paying today's rates around the ATL, and not some rates from 1980 from Puerto Rico.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2019 :  11:09:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo

quote:
Originally posted by wareagle

Too many ex- players who never learned another skill or arenít ready to move on. . Now they are trying to make a full time living for a part time job. It works out for a few but most are just dragging out the end of their baseball careers. Parents that are paying that kind of money ($4500) need to re-evaluate.

I never paid more than $2000 and that was at 17u and I thought that was too much but the tournament fees were much more at 17u. Does the $ 4500 include spring/summer and fall or is fall baseball additional?



I'd say that's for 10-11 months of baseball...

Punishers- let me know where you can find a coach for $5K. Most around GA want (or expect) double that... Uniforms for $400 ea? Sure, sign me up. BUT, most 'academies' do all the ordering of these items... I relate it to, 'fox guarding the hen house'. But again, you're at their mercy. What about 'academy' FEES or dues. These could run $300+ per year, and are typically included in your player fee. 15 tourneys is a light schedule if you include fall. And no bigger tourneys? PG World Series, WWBA, Super25, BCS... These run ~$2K, AND remember that 'paid coach', but his travel expenses (hotel, gas or airfare) have to be paid... So at $1,700 per payer, I'm seeing the team in the red. Especially if you're paying today's rates around the ATL, and not some rates from 1980 from Puerto Rico.



If you see it in the red, please give a breakdown. No failure coach who was a 37th round pic and could not get past -AA ball should not be commanding more than what his signing bonus was. 6K for a paid coach is fair. As far as uniforms goes, you need to see my designer. He has outfitted entire teams for less than 2k for 12 players. 3 shirts, 2 caps, 2 pants, 1 bag, 1 helmet. Can buy most from Epic sports for team package rates.

Where do you see 2K??

$675
https://www.perfectgame.org/events/Default.aspx?event=9039

$800
https://www.perfectgame.org/events/Default.aspx?event=8504

$1000
https://www.perfectgame.org/events/Default.aspx?event=8562

Edited by - Punishers on 05/20/2019 14:58:25
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2019 :  11:51:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wareagle

Too many ex- players who never learned another skill or arenít ready to move on. . Now they are trying to make a full time living for a part time job. It works out for a few but most are just dragging out the end of their baseball careers. Parents that are paying that kind of money ($4500) need to re-evaluate.

I never paid more than $2000 and that was at 17u and I thought that was too much but the tournament fees were much more at 17u. Does the $ 4500 include spring/summer and fall or is fall baseball additional?




I think the $4500 is just for Spring/Summer that Renegade44 is referring to.
You do not need a ex-player to coach, you just need someone who knows the game in detail and can maneuver/manage players in game time situations. Most ex-players only know about playing and not coaching. Many do not have the aptitude for college or to have any other skills to live off of outside of just playing. I wonder how many 1099's they are getting?

Edited by - Punishers on 05/20/2019 14:58:25
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Renegade44

207 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2019 :  17:46:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah 4500 summer. You get a break with Fall pricing of only 2,000
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Jackets96

32 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  00:38:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thereís really places that are $4,500 for just Spring/Summer? Does that include travel costs to some out of town tournaments or just playing fees? How does one find out how much a place is before going to tryouts?
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  01:42:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone ever noticed that when the subject of the costs come up, the academy guys go crickets?
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  09:33:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo

quote:
Originally posted by wareagle

Too many ex- players who never learned another skill or arenít ready to move on. . Now they are trying to make a full time living for a part time job. It works out for a few but most are just dragging out the end of their baseball careers. Parents that are paying that kind of money ($4500) need to re-evaluate.

I never paid more than $2000 and that was at 17u and I thought that was too much but the tournament fees were much more at 17u. Does the $ 4500 include spring/summer and fall or is fall baseball additional?



I'd say that's for 10-11 months of baseball...

Punishers- let me know where you can find a coach for $5K. Most around GA want (or expect) double that... Uniforms for $400 ea? Sure, sign me up. BUT, most 'academies' do all the ordering of these items... I relate it to, 'fox guarding the hen house'. But again, you're at their mercy. What about 'academy' FEES or dues. These could run $300+ per year, and are typically included in your player fee. 15 tourneys is a light schedule if you include fall. And no bigger tourneys? PG World Series, WWBA, Super25, BCS... These run ~$2K, AND remember that 'paid coach', but his travel expenses (hotel, gas or airfare) have to be paid... So at $1,700 per payer, I'm seeing the team in the red. Especially if you're paying today's rates around the ATL, and not some rates from 1980 from Puerto Rico.



There are discounts for team and multiple team purchases of each item. Some are not even providing pants, helmets or bags, but still charging a 100% markup.

UNIFORM BREAKDOWN
# of players 12

Shirts (3 @ $30 each) $90.00

Pants (2 @ $35 each) $70.00

Caps (2 @ $17 each) $34.00

Helmet $32.00

Bag $40.00

TOTAL (Each Player) $266.00
TOTAL $3,192.00

Edited by - Punishers on 05/21/2019 10:40:58
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bbsis

40 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  10:34:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You have to conclude that the academy guys have some profit built into uniforms/bag/helmet. Other than the administrative time involved in keeping track of who needs new uniforms/equipment, I don't see why a player staying with the same academy year after year HAS to buy new stuff year after year. It's probably too time consuming (and cuts down on profit) to let the players submit an order form and let THEM decide what they want to buy new and what is still in good enough condition to use another year. So the font style of the numbers or letters might be a little different but as long as the color matches, who cares? And, don't forget to add in the money the academy guys make from lessons. We have paid several thousand over the course of the year.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  10:53:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
20% Profit is standard retail markup. These guys are marking up over 100%. No need to buy new gear every year if nothing is wrong with the old gear. I guess the head coach of the team is the one charging for lessons? Sounds like a pay for play situation. The head coach should not be charging the players on the team he coaches for lessons. That's Collusion. Mandatory lessons are just another way to make sure they keep money coming in.

Oh, and never pay with cash or check. Always use a credit card, Amex preferred. If they want cash, walk away. Any real business will always accept credit cards. If you are really business savy, set up an LLC, tax ID, bank account and 1099 anyone you pay. That way it doesn't look like you are giving un-traceable money.

quote:
Originally posted by bbsis

You have to conclude that the academy guys have some profit built into uniforms/bag/helmet. Other than the administrative time involved in keeping track of who needs new uniforms/equipment, I don't see why a player staying with the same academy year after year HAS to buy new stuff year after year. It's probably too time consuming (and cuts down on profit) to let the players submit an order form and let THEM decide what they want to buy new and what is still in good enough condition to use another year. So the font style of the numbers or letters might be a little different but as long as the color matches, who cares? And, don't forget to add in the money the academy guys make from lessons. We have paid several thousand over the course of the year.



Edited by - Punishers on 05/21/2019 13:29:55
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bama21

278 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  11:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your uniform breakdown didn't include the belt:

3,500.00 Louis VUITTON LV 40mm

12 x 3,500 = $42,000

Now you can see why the fees are so high.

Edited by - bama21 on 05/21/2019 13:29:55
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  14:23:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Too Funny! Those belt's too rich for my blood.

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Your uniform breakdown didn't include the belt:

3,500.00 Louis VUITTON LV 40mm

12 x 3,500 = $42,000

Now you can see why the fees are so high.


Edited by - Punishers on 05/21/2019 15:36:20
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Il Leonne

11 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  20:02:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

My kid can see 300 pitches from me rather than 30 and wait in line for 2hrs.



OMG preach!
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2019 :  22:06:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still waiting on the academy guys to chime in. I guess when it comes to the real numbers, they stay away from it. I see the costs as I see any other bill. There is a line item for each and every fee. Since tryouts are about to start again, just ask for a line item detail of the costs and wait for the stuttering and double talk of excuses to spew. Stay away from the ones who refuse to provide it.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2019 :  16:25:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The academy guys are not going to say anything. Do not want their greed to be exposed. Hope everyone is noticing this because I've seen many of those high dollar teams get run ruled on by $2k and under teams playing in the same tournaments. This is not one of those situations where paying more means better either.

Edited by - Punishers on 05/22/2019 17:17:19
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agent21

96 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2019 :  18:53:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brand new uniforms every year is probably like wearing a new suit to a job interview. You've gotta look the part. If you look the part, you feel the part and hopefully play the part too! So, do the best looking uniforms out there tend to finish in the top 3 spots of a tournament? None of the teams we've played for have charged us for a Louis Vuitton belt yet -- 3 caps yes. 3 jerseys yes but they usually throw the belt in as an "extra bonus.".
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Renegade44

207 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2019 :  08:38:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With uniforms these days.............I see a lot of early auditions/interviews for the slow pitch softball circuit.
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Punishers

668 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2019 :  20:20:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like everyone wants to hide their costs like it a matter of national security. Let us see it!!!
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turntwo

941 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2019 :  16:19:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm betting, if you COULD ever get a line item budget, it would blow your mind... It may break down like this:

Uniform/Fee/Team Equip: $1,000 per player (just a random number, but most 'programs' offer uniform packages, maybe require teams purchase equipment through them at their cost, shoes through them, and have annual 'fees' for park use, etc)
Tourney Entries: $775 per player ($10K for tourneys, 13 players)
Indoor cost: $200
CoacheS fees: $1,025 (yes this is plural, meaning more than one paid coach)
Total Cost: $3000 per player

Now, look at that... $1,025 for 2 (or 3) paid coaches... $1,025 per x 13 players = $13,325. That's something like $8,500 for head coach and $4,800 for assistant. OR if 3 coaches, or that occasional coach brought in, maybe that 3rd guy gets $2K off the top. Then, that would be $7K for head, and $4K for assistant.

Not saying these numbers are acceptable, just breaking it down a little based on rumors I hear, and/or past experience.
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