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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/25/2019 : 10:05:40
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| For some reason people are stuck on something with holding their kid back a grade for some sort of advantage. I think this has gotten way out of hand and schools should not allow it unless the kid has failed a grade. There is no advantage is everyone is holding back. You just end up right back where you are to begin with. Keep this in mind, while people are hold their kids back for some sort of advantage there is a 20yr old Dominican playing in the world series and your kid will graduate HS at 19. Zero advantage! |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/25/2019 10:06:45 |
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georgiabaseball13
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2019 : 13:15:52
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While you might be correct in your assessment of the situation, what gets me is why do you or anyone else care? It's not your child, you don't know the full circumstances of the situation, and the only possible reason you are worried about it is that you don't want your team or your little Johnny losing a game or a tournament to a team that has these players on it.
My advice, spend more time worrying about developing your own team or players and less time worried about what other parents and coaches do with their players. |
Edited by - georgiabaseball13 on 10/25/2019 16:37:31 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2019 : 22:07:17
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Wrong, not worried. Not worried about wins now either. We play up not hold back to play down. That's how you develop your game, by playing up against older/stronger players and not trying to beat up on the younger, weaker guys for some assumed advantage. So you are good with holding back a honors student for a sport??? There is also a psychcological effect when the kid knows they are being held back to repeat a grade because his parents want him to be the stud at a sport. If baseball teaches life lessons, then what are the kids being taught by this? "Cheat until you get caught"? These are the same parent who inject steroids, hgh, and other PED's in their kids now. All for some assumed advantage.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
While you might be correct in your assessment of the situation, what gets me is why do you or anyone else care? It's not your child, you don't know the full circumstances of the situation, and the only possible reason you are worried about it is that you don't want your team or your little Johnny losing a game or a tournament to a team that has these players on it.
My advice, spend more time worrying about developing your own team or players and less time worried about what other parents and coaches do with their players.
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Edited by - Punishers on 10/25/2019 22:42:38 |
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georgiabaseball13
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2019 : 23:35:03
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Again, WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?
First, read my post, I said you might be correct. I did not share my personal opinion on it.
1. I don't know - nor do you - all the reasons behind each of these parents decisions. You are painting every different individual with the same brush which right there makes you at least partially wrong because not all of those held back are for those reasons.
2. Again, it's not your child and if you aren't worried about wins then frankly it's none of your business how or why they choose to raise their child differently than you choose to raise yours. I know many college and high school coaches that believe there are logical reasons not to play some kids up an age group and believe it's a determent to them.
3. You are making massive leaps - Parent holds child back (highly likely most of these kids aren't honor students I understand some might be) same parent that is giving their kid PED's. Again maybe, but I'd bet that's far more the exception vs. the norm.
Please provide your data for these statements. What research or proof do you have that parents who are holding kids back are doing it so they will be studs and then later injecting them with steroids?
Oh and again - if said kids and teams aren't beating you or taking opportunities from your child - why do you care? |
Edited by - georgiabaseball13 on 10/26/2019 10:18:11 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2019 : 11:50:56
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You sound like a hold back parent. 80's I guess. New age parent. I personally know a slew of parents who have held their kids back a grade or 2 for a sport advantage and giving their kids PED's. I can see for learning or medical reasons, but for a sport? You ask for data like people will openly tell you they held their kid back or giving them PED's. That's just a stupid question to begin with. Proof? just look at some PG profiles and you will see for yourself.
I don't care. Not my kid. Just voicing an opinion which is why this board was created for. If you don't like my opinion then move on. Then again I don't have a 13yo playing 11u. Or is that just you? |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/26/2019 16:54:46 |
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georgiabaseball13
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2019 : 20:06:10
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If all of these parents are out there and openly listed on PG - call them out - list their names - provide the proof.
FYI - I was born in 75 and I went to play college baseball as a 17 year old as my parents decided to push me forward. Again, I don't disagree with you - I never have stated I didn't agree with you. What I do disagree with is you trying to tell someone else how to raise their child, ESPECIALLY, since you don't know their situation. Apparently, you are only seeing an age on a website.
What I don't get is why you seem so butt sore about it? Why do you care - your "opinion" appears to be very strong for someone that doesn't have a dog in the fight. You have yet to explain WHY you have such a strong opinion...one can only assume it's due to the fact that you don't like losing to said teams who are using these players.
I crack up laughing at people that get bent out of shape about pick ups or "playing down" etc - if you don't like getting beat - get better....bottom line! I can promise you will learn more than rolling teams.
And if you are playing up as you claim - then those kids are playing down so again - not your concern. |
Edited by - georgiabaseball13 on 10/26/2019 21:20:30 |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2019 : 10:44:20
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It's definitely a touchy subject.
I think Punishers actually has a valid point, in the past it's always happened, but It seems to be happening more and more frequently, and a lot of the times it is solely for competitive advantage in sport. So I think he was commenting more on the trend.
I know of at least 3 or 4 kids/familes that have done it over the last couple of years, All at time of 8th grade. Parents de-enroll them from Public School, put them into a private school or home school for a year, then re-enroll back into public schools. Most of them have excellent grades, mature, and are not on the small size either. So I can attest to Punishers point that it's happening and for the most part seems it is based on sports as the primary reason.
I personally have mixed feelings on it. I've asked my son if he would ever want to do it, and he looked at me like I was crazy, saying why would I want to do that? Another part of me side with georgiabaseball13, saying to each their own, not my kid, not my business. But I also see Punishers point of view too. I personally don't think that would be right for my child, but I do think it warrants people to monitor the situation if it is on the rise.
It's really no different than in any sport kids, transferring schools to go to a better school, or to be a starter somewhere vs a bench player etc. People are always looking for a way to gain advantage, to me the only way to do it is to get in a weight room, and practice, practice, and more practice. Let your effort and skill determine your outcome.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
If all of these parents are out there and openly listed on PG - call them out - list their names - provide the proof.
FYI - I was born in 75 and I went to play college baseball as a 17 year old as my parents decided to push me forward. Again, I don't disagree with you - I never have stated I didn't agree with you. What I do disagree with is you trying to tell someone else how to raise their child, ESPECIALLY, since you don't know their situation. Apparently, you are only seeing an age on a website.
What I don't get is why you seem so butt sore about it? Why do you care - your "opinion" appears to be very strong for someone that doesn't have a dog in the fight. You have yet to explain WHY you have such a strong opinion...one can only assume it's due to the fact that you don't like losing to said teams who are using these players.
I crack up laughing at people that get bent out of shape about pick ups or "playing down" etc - if you don't like getting beat - get better....bottom line! I can promise you will learn more than rolling teams.
And if you are playing up as you claim - then those kids are playing down so again - not your concern.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2019 : 18:55:50
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OK, So indulge us. Under what circumstances would a parent hold their kid back a grade or grades (who isn't failing = flunked) for a sport? I just want to see a list of reasons so I can get a good laugh for the week.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
If all of these parents are out there and openly listed on PG - call them out - list their names - provide the proof.
FYI - I was born in 75 and I went to play college baseball as a 17 year old as my parents decided to push me forward. Again, I don't disagree with you - I never have stated I didn't agree with you. What I do disagree with is you trying to tell someone else how to raise their child, ESPECIALLY, since you don't know their situation. Apparently, you are only seeing an age on a website.
What I don't get is why you seem so butt sore about it? Why do you care - your "opinion" appears to be very strong for someone that doesn't have a dog in the fight. You have yet to explain WHY you have such a strong opinion...one can only assume it's due to the fact that you don't like losing to said teams who are using these players.
I crack up laughing at people that get bent out of shape about pick ups or "playing down" etc - if you don't like getting beat - get better....bottom line! I can promise you will learn more than rolling teams.
And if you are playing up as you claim - then those kids are playing down so again - not your concern.
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Edited by - Punishers on 10/27/2019 22:26:56 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2019 : 19:25:49
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It's touchy because the parents who do it are getting looked at, like WTH is wrong with you?
We grew up in a different age. Older kids in our grades were either dumb or special. We played up and challenged ourselves to get better. Our parents didn't hold us back for a sport advantage and I thank them for it too. I've never heard of anyone who has gotten better from playing down a few grades. They will assimilate down to that level.
To me this is a fear to compete from the parents. Don't want to see their kid fail with their class. If they are not the best in their original class, they probably will not be the best 3 classes below them either. After puberty, your kid will be where they are anyway.
Should the schools intervene and force kids in age appropriate grades with their own? I think they should consider it. This is life. Keep up or get ran over.
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
It's definitely a touchy subject.
I think Punishers actually has a valid point, in the past it's always happened, but It seems to be happening more and more frequently, and a lot of the times it is solely for competitive advantage in sport. So I think he was commenting more on the trend.
I know of at least 3 or 4 kids/familes that have done it over the last couple of years, All at time of 8th grade. Parents de-enroll them from Public School, put them into a private school or home school for a year, then re-enroll back into public schools. Most of them have excellent grades, mature, and are not on the small size either. So I can attest to Punishers point that it's happening and for the most part seems it is based on sports as the primary reason.
I personally have mixed feelings on it. I've asked my son if he would ever want to do it, and he looked at me like I was crazy, saying why would I want to do that? Another part of me side with georgiabaseball13, saying to each their own, not my kid, not my business. But I also see Punishers point of view too. I personally don't think that would be right for my child, but I do think it warrants people to monitor the situation if it is on the rise.
It's really no different than in any sport kids, transferring schools to go to a better school, or to be a starter somewhere vs a bench player etc. People are always looking for a way to gain advantage, to me the only way to do it is to get in a weight room, and practice, practice, and more practice. Let your effort and skill determine your outcome.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiabaseball13
If all of these parents are out there and openly listed on PG - call them out - list their names - provide the proof.
FYI - I was born in 75 and I went to play college baseball as a 17 year old as my parents decided to push me forward. Again, I don't disagree with you - I never have stated I didn't agree with you. What I do disagree with is you trying to tell someone else how to raise their child, ESPECIALLY, since you don't know their situation. Apparently, you are only seeing an age on a website.
What I don't get is why you seem so butt sore about it? Why do you care - your "opinion" appears to be very strong for someone that doesn't have a dog in the fight. You have yet to explain WHY you have such a strong opinion...one can only assume it's due to the fact that you don't like losing to said teams who are using these players.
I crack up laughing at people that get bent out of shape about pick ups or "playing down" etc - if you don't like getting beat - get better....bottom line! I can promise you will learn more than rolling teams.
And if you are playing up as you claim - then those kids are playing down so again - not your concern.
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Edited by - Punishers on 10/27/2019 22:27:12 |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 00:24:15
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| But the recruiters and promoters love this age holdback. They get off on it. Thus it continues to accelerate. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 06:25:25
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| I have posted on this in the past so feel free to go back and look. I held both my boys back. Late July and early August birthdays. So basically, I held them back a month. It was basically a maturity issue. My kids competed well regardless of age. As I have said in the past, I know many parents who wish they had held thier kids back for various reasons, but I have never heard a parent say that they regret holding thier kid back. Find me some parents who have had a bad experience and I’ll be happy to listen. All I ever seem to hear are people who chose not to hold back thier kids complaining. |
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Luke13
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 07:02:26
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| Agreed. It’s getting ridiculous!!! |
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georgiabaseball13
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 08:16:10
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Punishers - again you have failed to address my point. WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH??????
I did not say I agreed with parents doing it so there's no need for me to explain anything further. As for viable reasons why someone holds people back those are subject - what might be a good reason for someone else might not be a good reason for you. Maybe it's not about physical maturity as much as it is mental maturity. Kids develop differently not just in their physical side, but their mental side. Maybe there are some financial concerns - not having two kids in college at the same time etc. Who knows what reasons they may have, but it's not your place or my place or anyone else's place to determine what is a legitmate reason for someone else's kid. You have the right to raise your kid the way you want to just like they do. You have repeatedly spoken of playing your child up, do you want me or someone else you don't know or god forbid some sanctioning body telling you that you aren't allowed to make that choice for you child? |
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playhardhavefun
11 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 10:54:36
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| Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age? |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 14:02:57
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| I sometimes wonder, how many of the people who brag about "playing up" are doing so mostly to excuse so-so performances and losses? With the vast majority of teams out there being AAA or well below, very few kids/teams really have to play up to find a level of competition that challenges them and helps them develop. I think some people play their kids up just to cover up what would happen if they tried to compete against the top competition at their own age level. |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 17:04:32
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Yes it is one more year of revenues, from tournaments, showcases etc...
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
But the recruiters and promoters love this age holdback. They get off on it. Thus it continues to accelerate.
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 17:16:57
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My guess for playing up, is an exceptional athlete dominating at the highest levels in their age group and not being challenged OR trying to grade level before high school. Outside of that it is likely parental chest thumping or rose colored glasses, hey look at my kid.
As far as wins or losses, Baseball is a team game, and that ignorant to think a player, playing up or down will add to the win or loss totals.
All decisions should be based on what is best for that particular players development, not wins, not losses, not stats. It's a similar argument would I rather my kid hit .700 at AA, .450 at AAA or .325 playing a legit Majors schedule? You can't compare them as they are vastly different environments, pitching, defense the whole gammit.
To me at the end of the day, I would say overwhelmingly it is the Parents making these decisions, and most likely on some dream/vision they are having about their kids future.
My two cents: Play the appropriate age group, play your appropriate skill level (Rec, AA, AAA, Major) and work on development and fundamentals, if it's there, it's there if it's not it won't be. In the end as they mature no matter what the parent do, it eventually is on each player to do the extra work to be successful.
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
I sometimes wonder, how many of the people who brag about "playing up" are doing so mostly to excuse so-so performances and losses? With the vast majority of teams out there being AAA or well below, very few kids/teams really have to play up to find a level of competition that challenges them and helps them develop. I think some people play their kids up just to cover up what would happen if they tried to compete against the top competition at their own age level.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 17:18:37
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I would say it's about the same amount of people who brag about holding their kid back a grade to cover up playing against their grade level of competition.
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
I sometimes wonder, how many of the people who brag about "playing up" are doing so mostly to excuse so-so performances and losses? With the vast majority of teams out there being AAA or well below, very few kids/teams really have to play up to find a level of competition that challenges them and helps them develop. I think some people play their kids up just to cover up what would happen if they tried to compete against the top competition at their own age level.
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 18:00:23
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Its all akin to the college acceptance scandal in the news for certain high profile universities. But instead of an elite school acceptance, the carrot is the coveted baseball(or other sport) scholarship spot.
Its just another form of rigging the system for ones specific benefit at the expense of some other not as connected or financed peer.
The currency used isn't some $250k+ booster check, instead its the currency of extra time and metric comparisons to lesser level more friendlier data.
Results? Less about competition, every day less and less about competition, more and more about how to work the system for your schemed up benefit. Entitlement. the "I'm entitled, you're not" mentality.
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 20:45:59
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| Lots of “mind readers” on here, pretending to know why people do different things. Do what you feel Is best for your child, and let others do what they feel is right for them. |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 21:41:44
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I included both individual players and entire teams playing up, which is why I mentioned so-so performances (players) and losses (teams).
My point is that many teams/players play up for reasons other than legitimate development reasons. If your kid "plays up" on a AA or a lower AAA team with a .500 winning percentage in Grand Slam tourneys, you aren't doing him any development favors. The higher AAA and majors teams a year younger would be better competition. I think one reason people do this is to be able to brag that their kid not only plays travel ball, but they play UP! And then when their kid ends up in the middle of the pack, it's OK because they have the convenient excuse that everybody else is a year older. (Some of these people MIGHT also obsess over those who hold their kid back to gain an advantage, too.)
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
My guess for playing up, is an exceptional athlete dominating at the highest levels in their age group and not being challenged OR trying to grade level before high school. Outside of that it is likely parental chest thumping or rose colored glasses, hey look at my kid.
As far as wins or losses, Baseball is a team game, and that ignorant to think a player, playing up or down will add to the win or loss totals.
All decisions should be based on what is best for that particular players development, not wins, not losses, not stats. It's a similar argument would I rather my kid hit .700 at AA, .450 at AAA or .325 playing a legit Majors schedule? You can't compare them as they are vastly different environments, pitching, defense the whole gammit.
To me at the end of the day, I would say overwhelmingly it is the Parents making these decisions, and most likely on some dream/vision they are having about their kids future.
My two cents: Play the appropriate age group, play your appropriate skill level (Rec, AA, AAA, Major) and work on development and fundamentals, if it's there, it's there if it's not it won't be. In the end as they mature no matter what the parent do, it eventually is on each player to do the extra work to be successful.
quote:
Originally posted by oneZone
I sometimes wonder, how many of the people who brag about "playing up" are doing so mostly to excuse so-so performances and losses? With the vast majority of teams out there being AAA or well below, very few kids/teams really have to play up to find a level of competition that challenges them and helps them develop. I think some people play their kids up just to cover up what would happen if they tried to compete against the top competition at their own age level.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2019 : 21:46:27
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There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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Edited by - Punishers on 10/28/2019 22:41:16 |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 00:05:31
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Play up why?
Shoot that's easy or should be an easy question to answer. Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up??? That's the real question.
Play up because you intend to play up at every level your reach. Play up because you intend to test your skills against older, stronger, faster players so you can move and think faster. Play up because mistakes matter more each year and its time to learn that on field mistakes have consequences. Play up because that's where you go each year. UP! Play up because you love the competition and the challenge.
Play up cause frankly its better baseball, and most importantly you only get better at competing when you play on the edge. Play up because you are confident in what you do.
Now tell me? Why play down or at age? Are you a real player or just chasing more favorable measurables?
See there's another way this country club travel baseball sport has gone wrong. Win or go home. The opponent isn't the radar gun or any measurable you gain from staying a year back. Scoreboard. Win or go home.
And to do that each and every year beyond 7th grade means you better be challenging yourself to the limit. Not finding a way to play down. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 09:28:38
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| I've seen some so called major teams get beat up by grandslam only teams. Point is moot. If it was all about wins, then our style of play would not only be to beat you but to beat up on you as well. That's when development does not matter and neither the safety of the opposing team players. Then all those chest thumping winning parents will be saying "they are just kids" when little Johnny gets spiked a few times or see a few pitches come at that melon, and that's just a small taste. Call me dirty, but we won and that will be all that matters. I just havent sold my soul for a few false wins at the youth level. |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 10:23:04
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As far as I know, LL never went by grade, only by age. What they did was move the age cutoff date to Sept. 1 instead of May 1 (I think). That put the cutoff date in line with their season, so now you won't see a 13-yo playing in the LL World Series. This seems smart.
Why doesn't travel ball do something similar? And if they're going to determine eligibility by grade OR age, there should be a max. age restriction in place to prevent that 14-yo 6th grader from playing 12U (because that's ridiculous!).
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
There is a grade option in travel ball. Example: A 14yo in the 6th grade can play 12u. Little League cured that when they changed the age cutoff date to Sept 1st regardless of grade. In travel ball the other venues refuse to do the same in fear of loss of revenue.
quote:
Originally posted by playhardhavefun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding your kid back would only help in high school ball where they play by class and not for travel where they play by age?
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2019 : 11:03:32
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I think the benefits of appropriately playing up are pretty easy to agree on. I just don't think that reality matches what you describe below.
You say, "Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up???" But how do you define "competitive"? Because in my experience, only a very small percentage of travel ball players are actually good enough to appropriately play up.
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Originally posted by Renegade44
Play up why?
Shoot that's easy or should be an easy question to answer. Why wouldn't every competitive player want to play up??? That's the real question.
Play up because you intend to play up at every level your reach. Play up because you intend to test your skills against older, stronger, faster players so you can move and think faster. Play up because mistakes matter more each year and its time to learn that on field mistakes have consequences. Play up because that's where you go each year. UP! Play up because you love the competition and the challenge.
Play up cause frankly its better baseball, and most importantly you only get better at competing when you play on the edge. Play up because you are confident in what you do.
Now tell me? Why play down or at age? Are you a real player or just chasing more favorable measurables?
See there's another way this country club travel baseball sport has gone wrong. Win or go home. The opponent isn't the radar gun or any measurable you gain from staying a year back. Scoreboard. Win or go home.
And to do that each and every year beyond 7th grade means you better be challenging yourself to the limit. Not finding a way to play down.
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Here we go again
