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bmoser
1633 Posts |
 Posted - 12/19/2008 : 19:58:41
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In my opinion, we have the athletes and Coaches to build a National powerhouse from our area spanning all age groups. I realize football's popularity is a challenge, but could we still field a Team Georgia?
The East Cobb program is beginning to gain National recognition, so do we rally around that? They seem to be lacking at the younger age groups, and Cobb is not centrally located. Forsyth County or just South of there could draw families from the entire North metro. Is there a facility there to support such an effort? Could there be Corporate sponsors? UPS, Coke, Home Depot, Newell Rubbermaid?
I've noticed some of these National powerhouses have 18+ players on their teams. How do they keep them all happy?
Is there any value in having such a program?
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Phattso
143 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2008 : 11:15:17
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East Cobb IS a national powerhouse and has been for some time. I played for them about 15 years ago and the national recognition was already there. Kids come from far and near to play at East Cobb. Most of the older age group coaches already have rapport built with major colleges and pro scouts.
And at the older age groups, 18 players isn't out of the question. As the kids get older coaches carry position players and kids that ONLY pitch. The pitcher only kids usually seem to know their roles and it isn't an issue. It's the position players that want to pitch who may become disgruntled. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2008 : 16:24:36
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I guess I don't see it as much as I should because my son is only 9, and East Cobb seems to gain traction as the boys get older. Last years 13's,14's,15's were rated 7,2,1 Nationally which is very impressive. However, the 9-12's were not quite as strong. I guess as the boys age and more is at stake, non-Cobb families are more willing to make the trip, and pay what it costs to have access to top notch facilities and Coaching.
quote:
Originally posted by Phattso
East Cobb IS a national powerhouse and has been for some time. I played for them about 15 years ago and the national recognition was already there. Kids come from far and near to play at East Cobb. Most of the older age group coaches already have rapport built with major colleges and pro scouts.
And at the older age groups, 18 players isn't out of the question. As the kids get older coaches carry position players and kids that ONLY pitch. The pitcher only kids usually seem to know their roles and it isn't an issue. It's the position players that want to pitch who may become disgruntled.
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2008 : 18:12:31
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I think you have to take and seperate the older from the younger age groups.
Here is a little food for thought on the older age grouping:
Perfect Game PG Crosschecker PGX Team Rankings:
14U: #1 - 14U East Cobb Astros
15U: #1 - 15U East Cobb Astros
17U: #2 - 16U East Cobb Astros
18U: #6 - 18U East Cobb Braves
Rounding Third Blog ranks East Cobb Baseball as the #3 Baseball Program in the Country for College Development behind ABD Academy in Southern Cal, and Norcal Baseball in Northern Cal.
Now, regarding the younger age groups, these are still predominately dad coached and have a varying degree of committment to travel by the players and parents. These age groups are not usually ready to travel from long distances to be on a team. Many times they don't have to. Once players start moving to the bigger fields, the pool of players shrinks and the better players have to travel farther to be on a good team. Players on the older EC Astros teams come from more than just the local area, or even just from the Southeast, for that manner. I talked to one kid on the 16U team that is from Mass. and won't be down here to play until June, when school is out. It would be difficult to have that happen at the younger ages. As much because the younger teams start tournament play in the spring, rather than after HS ball is over. I realize the Terminators do pull players from across the SE but that is one age group and not across multiple age groups.
I realize that many people, locally, don't like the East Cobb program for one reason or another, but if you do your homework and talk to people across the country, they will tell you that the East Cobb Baseball program is well known and a National Powerhouse. I just believe the program emphasis is more on preparing kids for HS and getting them in a position to receive a scholarship to college. For the younger age groups, it is more about them playing, having fun and developing along the way.
If you are interested in more of the story about East Cobb Baseball, go to the link below. It is an article that was written by Atlanta Sports & Fitness Magazine back in July 2005.
http://www.box.net/shared/1bjdnq5oj4
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Edited by - greglomax on 12/22/2008 08:42:31 |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 06:45:20
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Bmoser,what ratings are you going by?quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I guess I don't see it as much as I should because my son is only 9, and East Cobb seems to gain traction as the boys get older. Last years 13's,14's,15's were rated 7,2,1 Nationally which is very impressive. However, the 9-12's were not quite as strong. I guess as the boys age and more is at stake, non-Cobb families are more willing to make the trip, and pay what it costs to have access to top notch facilities and Coaching.
quote:
Originally posted by Phattso
East Cobb IS a national powerhouse and has been for some time. I played for them about 15 years ago and the national recognition was already there. Kids come from far and near to play at East Cobb. Most of the older age group coaches already have rapport built with major colleges and pro scouts.
And at the older age groups, 18 players isn't out of the question. As the kids get older coaches carry position players and kids that ONLY pitch. The pitcher only kids usually seem to know their roles and it isn't an issue. It's the position players that want to pitch who may become disgruntled.
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bball fan
20 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 09:54:32
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| Last year 11's (Coached by Art Evans) were the AAU National Champions and finished the year ranked by TBS #2. Very good team. Definately considered a "National Powerhouse" for the younger age group. |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 12:43:22
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East Cobb definatly is a national power. There have been other teams from Georgia that have also played well and drawn national attention. The Georgia Roadrunners and Team Georgia which are now both 18u teams have played and won many national events. Both teams have multiple players going on to play in college and a few likely and possible high draft picks. The Roadrunners won national championships 3 of the last 4 years and were runner up the other one. (2005 USSSA Elite 24 Champs, 2006 Perfect Game BCS Champions, 2007 CABA Runner up, and 2008 Triple Crown Natioanl Champions) Team Georgia won the 15u WWBA Perfect Game in 2006 as well.
The top teams at East Cobb are always at the top of their age groups. The East Cobb coaches don't start coaching the Astros until 13. So that is when you will actually see the Astros be the "A" team. The youger ages try to put their team up there as the "A" team but many do not succeed until that 13u age.
Now there are several organizations around town and they all seem to keep some of the top local talent from going to EC. Homeplate in Peachtree City, OTC in McDonough, Team Elite in Gwinett, and Chain Baseball in Columbus are a few of them. You throw the Roadrunners and Team Georgia in there and the talent gets a little spread out. So I don't know that you will ever see ALL of the top talent on one team. But it certainly isn't for lack of effort to get it that way. The coaches that represent those organizations work tirelessly to make their teams as talented as possible. |
Edited by - Mike Corbin on 12/22/2008 08:43:17 |
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baseball21
17 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2008 : 22:47:34
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| We have been associated with the East Cobb program, for going on 5 years and I have noticed they are receving more and more national attention every year.Almost all the teams have players from all over Georgia.I think EC has a lot of the preimer players in the 12,13,14,15,16 age group. |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 01:03:15
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most States realistically have the talent to put together the powerhouse status you suggest.
whats different in southern states of course is weather that allows the teams to play more games
but I differ on the importance of this powerhouse team or teams , its not important at all to be on a powerhouse team to be recognized for college and beyond.
if you have the tools and stats you will be found .
i hear the 14s and above ecb program teams are watched , below that they are still too young not even in high school too many changes for the kids good and bad ahead , many of your future top prospects have not even come on to the scene yet.
dont know when the coaching is actually better but the fields are mighty fine.  |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 10:20:19
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I just went to usssa 2008 majors by age group. Since my son is only 9, I am not plugged into other ranking services yet. I'm not looking that much ahead, just thought it would be great to aggregate more of the States' talent from ages 8-12 to form a Team Georgia to gain more recognition for the baseball talent we have here. The 8-12 talent seems to spread too thin.
quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
Bmoser,what ratings are you going by?quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I guess I don't see it as much as I should because my son is only 9, and East Cobb seems to gain traction as the boys get older. Last years 13's,14's,15's were rated 7,2,1 Nationally which is very impressive. However, the 9-12's were not quite as strong. I guess as the boys age and more is at stake, non-Cobb families are more willing to make the trip, and pay what it costs to have access to top notch facilities and Coaching.
quote:
Originally posted by Phattso
East Cobb IS a national powerhouse and has been for some time. I played for them about 15 years ago and the national recognition was already there. Kids come from far and near to play at East Cobb. Most of the older age group coaches already have rapport built with major colleges and pro scouts.
And at the older age groups, 18 players isn't out of the question. As the kids get older coaches carry position players and kids that ONLY pitch. The pitcher only kids usually seem to know their roles and it isn't an issue. It's the position players that want to pitch who may become disgruntled.
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 10:56:38
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Greglomax seems to be right on to me. It has to be looked at as 2 age groups. 8-12, then 13-18. No doubt EC IS a perennial National Powerhouse in 13-18, but only occasionally in 8-12. Why?
Most 8-12's that live East of 400, are not going to be willing to regularly travel to EC. (I am the only Gwinetian I know of w/ a 8-12 yr old son playing West of the River). I think if there was a facility near 400 that Gwinnett, Cobb and Forsyth families could easily access, more talent could be aggregated to form a 8-12 year old powerhouse program.
Does anyone have a spare $5M laying around? |
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rjrousseau1
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 12:39:05
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| What's wrong with the challenge of playing some of these "national powerhouses" with your team of local kids? I kind of enjoyed it and we never got run off the field. |
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 14:12:26
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Rich,
You are right. There is no problem playing these teams, and in most cases, there are equally talented teams outside EC. Just very few that have a team at every age group. I think that is what seperates a "National Team" from a "National Powerhouse". If you think in a "Micro" view, you look only at a single team level, but to evaluate a Powerhouse, it has to be done at a "Macro" level in looking at the overall program. Others that come to mind are:
NorCal
ABD Academy
MSA (Michigan)
Banditos |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 14:45:30
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What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply. |
Edited by - AllStar on 12/22/2008 14:54:34 |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 17:34:22
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The point is to garner even more attention for the talent we have in Metro Atlanta, and to create a feeder program for the East Cobb 12-18's. Most of the 8-11 Coaches/Parents I know are well aware of who the top teams in Georgia are, and a few of us keep track of the Regional and National scene as well. Perhaps when my son is older, I'll realize how insignificant 8-11 really was.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply.
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 19:52:21
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While I don't think 8-11 is insignificant, the need to have all the best players in GA on one team at these ages is. It is more important for players to play with good players and against them as well. I just can't see that having one team, loaded with all the best 12 players (even if you could get an agreement on who those are) from this area and not have equally as talented of teams to play would be beneficial at the younger ages. It would require travel outside the area all the time to find teams to play that would challenge them, which I just don't think is in most people's plans for 8-11 year olds. Playing weaker teams every weekend would not help the team develop.
BMoser,
I know how you feel, because I think we all felt the same way when our kids were at the younger ages, but honestly, recognition at the younger ages does not help their development any. We just want it because we get tired of seeing teams from other areas brag about their teams when we know we have as good of talent in this area as anywhere. Unfortunately it causes attention to be diverted from the real need and that is developing the players. |
Edited by - greglomax on 12/23/2008 09:13:17 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2008 : 21:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
The point is to garner even more attention for the talent we have in Metro Atlanta, and to create a feeder program for the East Cobb 12-18's. Most of the 8-11 Coaches/Parents I know are well aware of who the top teams in Georgia are, and a few of us keep track of the Regional and National scene as well. Perhaps when my son is older, I'll realize how insignificant 8-11 really was.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply.
I think somebody above mentioned several of the elite teams in GA. One of the big issues would be "getting behind" it. Why would the top teams from when my son's age group was younger(Coal Mountain, Paulding County, a couple of the other EC teams, South Forsyth) say, yeah, go ahead Astros, take my top 2 players and make a super team?
As opposed to saying, We're good coaches, why don't you send your best two players to us. They all could have made the case that they should be running "Team Georgia".
So you can argue about whether or not it is desirable, I'm not sure it would even be practical/viable. The kids gravitate to where they need to be eventually anyway. 12 or 13 seems to me to be the right time to start to think about it. |
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PCV
27 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 07:29:51
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Why a "powerhouse" at 8-11?
#1: Only a few of the "best" at 8 will be the "best" at 14. Are you under the impression that if your son plays on the Astros at 8, he will be on the Astros at 14?
#2: Who will you play each week? Do you have the money to travel around the country, taking your 8 year old out of school, each week? To find the competition that fits your team would warrant that.
#3: The "powerhouses" usually have 15 kids on the team. At 8 is every kid getting the reps at a position to make him better? I am pretty sure that most of the kids on the 14U Astros have played SS and/or 1st base at some point in his career. There is a reason that he is good. At 8 all of the kids hit or throw to him.
#4 It is a fact that your kid doesn't have to play for the powerhouse at East Cobb at 8 - 11 to get national attention.
I really like the "local" kids getting together and giving it their all. Our kids have played together for years. Some go to school together and most spend a lot of nights together during the summer and that is what a TEAM is all about.
When these kids get into high school, most will play for a team at East Cobb...that is just the way it is, but between 8 and 11 there is no advantage (except we get a lot more practice time at our field) in where you play. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 08:43:36
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| My opinion, 8-11 should be for having fun and keeping a kids interest in the game. Don't get me wrong, I am all for competition and playing the highest level you can for your ability, but worrying about "national powerhouse" status as an 8 or 9 year old is pretty rediculus. A great number of kids this age will not even be playing when they get to high school. I say put together a good area team and have fun. Play to win, but by the time these kids get to high school, you never know what they are going to be like. The studs of 8-10 yr olds could be run of the mill and the small behind the curve kids could be the studs. Don't worry about it. It's too early. Just make sure your son loves baseball and enjoy your time watching him play. |
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rjrousseau1
81 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 09:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by greglomax
Rich,
You are right. There is no problem playing these teams, and in most cases, there are equally talented teams outside EC. Just very few that have a team at every age group. I think that is what seperates a "National Team" from a "National Powerhouse". If you think in a "Micro" view, you look only at a single team level, but to evaluate a Powerhouse, it has to be done at a "Macro" level in looking at the overall program. Others that come to mind are:
NorCal
ABD Academy
MSA (Michigan)
Banditos
2 years ago my "local" team made up of kids who all started playing baseball in the same rec park, beat MSA and last year lost to Banditos Gold by 2 runs and we had their coach going nuts after 4 innings of shutting them out. Banditos had kids from all over the state of TX and beyond. We had kids that didn't stretch out more than 8 miles from each other. And I believe Gold finished ahead of Black in the Elite 24. I'll take my local kids and play anyone, and probably enjoy it alot more than all the headaches that come with coaching the "powerhouse."
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 10:51:33
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| PCV and Bballman said it much better than I did. |
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Learnpatience
69 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 10:58:10
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I agree with bballman and PCV. To think that the age groups from 8 - 11 really matter nationally is a joke. I think that one of the purposes of getting the kids involved with baseball at these ages is to develop their skills so they can play at a high school / college level (if they even desire to do so at that age).
I think we get a little carried away at these age groups to try and determine who is the best. It doesn't matter. Usually, the big kids are the best at the lower age groups just by virtue of being physically stronger. In 5 years they will be the fat slow ones and will fall off the baseball radar screen. Until then, just have fun with the kids that want to play and have patience with the ones that desire to get better. (this is more for me than anyone else |
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WaltDem
51 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 12:21:46
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I had a recent converstaion with a fair well known former high school and junior college head coach about this exact subject. No names necessary. But here is what he says.
He cares and they as a group of coaches care not what position a boy plays or where he plays until high school.
Someone mentioned being the best at 8 and sure as heck not at 14. This coach says that is quite true also for the comparison of 12 and 13Us and to when they are 15 in high school which is all he looks at.
Told me that the parents carrying them around to be on the "best team" puts a lot of weight on the boys back for something they never wanted to start with. But the parents did .
In his assessment all this "powerhouse" and "elite" team talk is from wanting for your kids but its without value as the true all star high school players have in many cases not yet emerged and are not budding allstars just because they land on a labeled team under 15Us.
I understand his rationale and do agree completely.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply.
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 15:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by WaltDem
I had a recent converstaion with a fair well known former high school and junior college head coach about this exact subject. No names necessary. But here is what he says.
He cares and they as a group of coaches care not what position a boy plays or where he plays until high school.
Someone mentioned being the best at 8 and sure as heck not at 14. This coach says that is quite true also for the comparison of 12 and 13Us and to when they are 15 in high school which is all he looks at.
Told me that the parents carrying them around to be on the "best team" puts a lot of weight on the boys back for something they never wanted to start with. But the parents did .
In his assessment all this "powerhouse" and "elite" team talk is from wanting for your kids but its without value as the true all star high school players have in many cases not yet emerged and are not budding allstars just because they land on a labeled team under 15Us.
I understand his rationale and do agree completely.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply.
So put you kid in the best position you know how to help him learn and enjoy the game. Don't worry about all that extraneous stuff and, if he has the "right stuff", when he's 14 there will be a place for him.
If he doesn't have the "right stuff" from a baseball perspective, at least he'll look back on his years in youth baseball fondly and not getting yanked from team to team and park to park with the whole household stressing out about W-L record, coaches' kids' batting averages and whether or not they're ranked higher than a team from California.
I know it was 100 years ago, but when I played youth baseball (LL), nobody worried about that stuff and I went from pernnial "All Star" (8-12) to bench warmer (HS) and never stopped enjoying the game. |
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mammabee
95 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 13:14:13
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Well we were told at 11 through 13 years old you can start seeing the boys who may be evintually overweight for genetics for eating habits or whatever
So that can come to pass by 14 years old or 15 might be what the coach means too.
quote:
Originally posted by WaltDem
I had a recent converstaion with a fair well known former high school and junior college head coach about this exact subject. No names necessary. But here is what he says.
He cares and they as a group of coaches care not what position a boy plays or where he plays until high school.
Someone mentioned being the best at 8 and sure as heck not at 14. This coach says that is quite true also for the comparison of 12 and 13Us and to when they are 15 in high school which is all he looks at.
Told me that the parents carrying them around to be on the "best team" puts a lot of weight on the boys back for something they never wanted to start with. But the parents did .
In his assessment all this "powerhouse" and "elite" team talk is from wanting for your kids but its without value as the true all star high school players have in many cases not yet emerged and are not budding allstars just because they land on a labeled team under 15Us.
I understand his rationale and do agree completely.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
What is the point of a "national powerhouse" team at the young ages? Is that what this is about now? We are past those age groups at this point, but I would bet you that 90% of the parents and 100% of the kids on the teams I've been involved with couldn't have told you who the best team in the metro area was, much less the state, region or country. They would have guessed the ECB Astros. Guess what, on some weekends they would have been right, on others not so much. The Astros were 11 YO's also, with all that implies. It just wasn't the point. At 12 you have LL if you really feel like you need to be on the National Stage at that age.
Even some of the older EC Astros/Braves cited in other posts aren't true "Team Georgia's" as they get kids from other states. That would be a lot of time and effort to put into something that only 12-15 families would care about. If the coaches could even attract and select the right 12-15 players.
If you could somehow attract and select the right coaches.
Obviously, no dads need apply.
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2008 : 22:19:25
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I get the impression from some of these posts that people don't think that you can put a highly competitive team on the field that in fact has FUN! Why do the two have to be seperate....because they don't.
Our jobs as coaches are in my opinion to 1. Teach the kids to play the game the right way with integrity and respect 2. make it (the GAME) fun so that they will continue to have the desire to continue to PLAY the GAME.
At the end of the day it is called a baseball GAME. If they did not have fun playing it, what is the point? |
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Building a National powerhouse
