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Titan1
210 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2009 : 12:45:06
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I know most of you play Triple Crown. How would you compare it to Grandslam, Nations, USSSA or any of the other organizations?
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baseball99
89 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 13:08:00
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| Don't like the pitching guidelines ... but then again we are not very deep on our pitching staff !!! |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 13:37:40
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The premier events at this age. TC does it right. The only thing that could make it better would be if he had access to 1 facility with say 6 fields instead of having to use multiple locations.
USSSA by far the worst of the ones you mention. Nations could compete in the future. I heard they did a good job with the first one they ran in the area a few weeks ago. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 14:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Titan1
I know most of you play Triple Crown. How would you compare it to Grandslam, Nations, USSSA or any of the other organizations?
In Triple Crown's favor:
1. Communication is 1000X better.
2. You can always see who is coming, though sometimes that changes quickly, like this weekend just ended. I think 4-5 teams, all strong, signed up late in the 13U.
3. Scores and seeding implications (Run Diff, RA, RS) updated quickly online.
In USSSA's favor:
1. Team classes (Major, etc.), though imperfect, give you a better idea who you will be going up against.
2. Records and results in USSSA give you an idea how teams have performed, though there isn't much data on a number of teams.
3. Rosters and roster history tells you something about the team.
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 23:11:32
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Titan1,
USSSA uses a point system to build its pool schedule. The more points your team accumulates, the better pool treatment you get, its systematically programmed. The more you spend and/or win within usssa, the better treatment you get. Once you see what teams are in a tourney, Coaches can figure out most of the time who they'll be playing in the pool games. Especially in smaller tourneys.
Triple Crown has no such numerically based system. TC officials try to give Cobb County teams the Thursday/Friday games so save non-Cobbers hotel costs. Sounds noble, but that gives Cobb teams an edge because they can spread out their pitching rotation over a greater # of days, so come Sunday, they have more fresh arms.
I also notice in giving the Cobb teams Thursday/Friday pool games, they try to avoid having Cobb teams face each other. They would say its because they are tired of playing each other all the time, but it might also be because one of them would have to lose. However, there are so many Cobb teams who play in Cobb tourneys, they cant always pull it off. Look at the last 10U TC tourney results. The 10U EC Scorpions had the easiest pool opponents and among the best game days/times. Look at who got the dreaded late Friday early Saturday game times. Go back and look at prior events for the same issues I raise here. While its not absolute, you'll see a trend. (for the record, the EC Longhorns were not so lucky last time around, but as I said, there are so many Cobb-based teams who frequent TC events, one of them is gonna have to play some tough pool games).
Then, if non-Cobb powerhouses enter, TC has a knack of pitting them against each other either in the pool, or in an early bracket game. You'll see the Stixx vs Grip, Bandits vs Stixx, Mac n Seitz vs Sandtown, ect.. These teams burn each others pitching staffs out trying to get the higher seed. I don't think you'll see the EC Scorpions playing the Stixx and Mac N Seitz in the pool.
My point is this...I have yet to see an baseball tourney org that doesn't favor its best customers. They just do it in different ways.
Your team has the edge in usssa tourneys, but not in Triple Crown in Cobb County. Know this coming in. This is their backyard. If your as good as the Bandits, don't worry...be happy...won't matter. For the rest of us, just relax and let the boys play ball. They'll never notice any of this stuff.
Playing at the All Tourney Players Park venue is worth the trip...if you get to play there. The Cobb teams seem to dominate the nicest venues. TC uses 4 or 5 10U venues to pull off a tourney this large, and they rate from A to C-. Bring lots of good maps and your GPS units because the combinations of parks you may have to drive to are endless. Also, bring cash and be prepared to pay for batting cages at 1 of them :( All Tourney Players park has no batting cages or even much room to throw, but its still very cool. Ride together, some of these venues have very limited parking. Gates fees for all, so don't wash the stamp off your hand.
Write a follow up afterwards from your point of view and your players.
quote:
Originally posted by Titan1
I know most of you play Triple Crown. How would you compare it to Grandslam, Nations, USSSA or any of the other organizations?
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 09:37:27
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I think Tony does a good job of balancing the teams out. Everyone can't be happy, but Bill there is not as much conspiracy as you seem to have listed above.
I think most of the logic is:
*Keep teams for same park from playing each other in pool play
*Try not to schedule teams coming from a long way an early Fri game.
*Keep top teams from previous TC tournaments from ending up in one pool.
*Take request into consideration (times not opponents)
Also keep in mind these tournaments typically have several age groups participating and contrary to popular belief, no one age group is important enough to do all the research people seem to think is necessary to set the pools up. If you have played several TC tournaments this year, the staff knows what level you play at, if not, don't expect them to go out and scour the web trying to find out what games you have played in other sanctioned tournaments. It is just not realistic.
As a final note, if you are a coach and you are a pain and complain all the time, don't expect to get the best treatment in pool and game assignments. You reap what you sew. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:09:07
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| Or you could do it like the Bandits. Just tell us who we play and where and at what time and we will be there. Moser is a fountain of information and this man might even be a baseball genius in my book and of all the people on this post I respect his opinion the most and it will always be factual whether you agree with it or not. But sometimes Mr. Moser gives Papa a headache trying to figure out what he just said so I just read it and believe that it is right just because he said it. |
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ingasven
120 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 12:37:05
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Doc is absolutely correct. Tony will readily admit that he couldn't possibly know who "the team to beat" is outside of the couple obvious ones in each age group.
As far as communication, website updates and being visible at every tournament it's hard to top Tony. Also, I personally saw him patiently listen to four different gripes about umpire decisions and interpretations in about an hour span during last weekend's tournament and with each & every one he was as diplomatic, understanding and patient as any human being could possibly be.
I know USTBA has taken some heat because of mother nature a couple of weekends ago, but having volunteered to help try and maintain the fields I know the on-site director was doing everything humanly possible to try to make things work for everyone. I was impressed despite the tournament ultimately being cancelled due to circumstances beyond anyones control.
USSSA...Can take a long walk off a short plank as far as I'm concerned...LFTG25, it's just my opinion!!
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 15:29:14
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| INGY, your opinion is correct sir. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 16:31:42
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| All of the organizations seem to have their strengths and also their weakness. USSSA does not appear to have anyone like Tony that is willing to listen and they definitely have never responded to any concern that I have had. They seem to believe that if they just ignore the problem that it will go away. And they also appear to think that it will be their way or the highway. From what I am hearing USSSA might have a lot of teams headed to the highway. I do like their overall system and if they had more open communication would not be a bad place to play baseball. |
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ec1
40 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 20:53:54
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| Hats off to Triple Crown and Tony for getting participation at East Cobb. The previous 2 USSSA events in our age group had 5-6 teams--Tony had over 20 last week and a quality field to boot. All of our games went 7 innings ( money's worth)--he runs a quality event. If you don't play in the Triple Crown State you are missing a quality tournament. Thanks Triple Crown. If you are a point chaser and think Disney is the key to your son's future--play USSSA. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 21:26:05
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PaPa, Your last sentence below was classic Yogi-Berra!
We are polar opposites, but I respect your gut instincts a lot. Its something I lack, so have to rely solely on data, and the numbers do lie from time to time. I read and respect every word you write.
We both have way too much time on our hands. If you drink 18+ year old Scotch and smoke the finest cigars, I'm buying next time we are in the same town. The stories we could tell... We have some common friends now, and I have some stories to tell. Your instincts about them are dead on. But my stats would have revealed the same!
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Or you could do it like the Bandits. Just tell us who we play and where and at what time and we will be there. Moser is a fountain of information and this man might even be a baseball genius in my book and of all the people on this post I respect his opinion the most and it will always be factual whether you agree with it or not. But sometimes Mr. Moser gives Papa a headache trying to figure out what he just said so I just read it and believe that it is right just because he said it.
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longhorn1
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 22:43:48
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| Titan-Tony and company are professional baseball people. Much of the beefs with other associations have more to do with director's credentials (or lack ther of) & bad weather. People who are doing this for a living somehow seem to do a better job. Crazy that! As far as who you play, we all left rec ball to play elite competition right? |
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goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 15:46:48
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Also - Our boys sure did enjoy the Plaques awarded this tourney from Tony & Triple Crown ... attaboy. They like these more than the towels so keep it up!  |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 19:39:12
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| bmoser; Just to let you know, PaPa and I have met and I think I have a friend for life. Now Kenny, you know that we are still tight and #10 holds you in high regaurds |
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Pickle
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 22:54:23
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Could be some trouble brewing in the TC events, I hear that it costs $5 dollars per child and $7 dollars per adult to get in at adcock field?
A lady called my wife and said that it cost her family $34 dollars to get in to watch her son play tonight? and they are FROM East Cobb?
I know you have to mke money , but thats a little steep for youth baseball in my opinion.
Dont you have to rent or pay for the batting cages there to? |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 22:54:29
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All have their pluses & minuses. Here are my observations:
Triple Crown -
Team Quality - A
- TC constantly brings in the best teams at all age levels. If you want to play the best, play TC.
Park Quality - A
- TC plays their events in the best parks in the area.
Director Availability - A
- I have a hard time figuring out how a Director of one organization that runs a 50 team tournament can't be available, when TC's director has 200+ teams and makes time for everyone. You might not always agree with the decisions that are made but you cannot argue with your ability to have your issues heard. This is a professionally run organization.
Communication - A
- Game times and schedules are posted early in the week and do not change. The website is updated quickly for all teams in all ages. TC also works hard to honor playing time requests and communicates well with coaches during the scheduling process.
Pool Play Balance - C+
- If there was one big area for improvement it is here. Because TC does not have a points system or a complete team history, it must rely on individual experiences to build a balanced pool, which of course is impossible. Early in the system, there can be some misses but it tends to get better as the season progresses.
On this note, I completely disagree with bmoser's assessment of ECB teams getting more lenient schedules but I can understand why he feels that way. This week's tournament, for example, does not favor ECB at all but there were a few questions in the first few events.
Game Times - C+
- Because TC has so many teams in a tournament, you often have an 8 am game and sometimes can play bracket games until late on Saturday night. TC tournaments almost always have an 8 am Sunday morning game for multiple teams so you can pretty much forget about church unless your team is already out after Saturday. This is a personal pet peeve of mine.
Value - B
- TC is one of the most expensive events for your team to attend. The tournament entry fees are higher than most and the gate fees are as well. Earlier in the year, teams were forced to pay 2 gate fees in a single day when they played in two different parks. I believe this was more of a lack of communication than an intentional money grab and TC corrected this for the next event. If this practice were to continue, this grade gets lowered.
TC does offer early sign-up and multiple event discounts which can save you as much as $100/tournament. If you sign up for 3 events early enough, you can save $300 for your team. Not too bad.
Even as the high ticket, you get what you pay for. Better teams, better fields, better overall experience.
Pitching Rules - B-
TC has by far the toughest pitching guidelines.
First, TC plays 1 hr 45 minute pool play games which means you're team is playing 10 - 12 innings unless you have a run rule game. This is 2 - 4 more innings than other events. Second, TC gives you only 6 innings until the 5th game, and then adds one inning per game. Both of these rules make the pitching tough and make you go deep (which is why the top teams like their tournaments), but I have no issues with these. 6 innings is about 90 pitches which is a pretty high count for a 10u in a weekend.
The last rule is TC employs is the problem in my opinion. An appearance in an inning counts as a full inning. The intent of this rule is fine because again, it's put in to protect the pitcher, but it can actually create a problem and cause more anguish on a pitchers arm. The problem comes from when a pitcher starts to get into trouble with 2 outs in an inning. Coaches are reluctant to pull a pitcher because they don't want to use up a full inning on a pitcher for getting one out. So they leave the laboring pitcher in the game in hopes of getting the final out. If TC counted innings on a per out basis, then I would change my grade to an A.
Point System - Incomplete
- TC has no point system to speak of. This is their #1 weakness in my opinion and what keeps some of the other organizations tops on many teams lists.
OVERALL - A-
Triple Crown has a full-time Tournament Director who runs one tournament per week (at least in the SE). The main advantage is that you always have a high quality event. This also means only a few opportunities for each team to play in one of their events leaving less room for comparative analysis between teams. It works well to distinguish the Top 8-10 teams in the state, but blurs the rest. If you're a Top 10 team (or want to be), definitely play TC. If you want to see how you stack up against these teams, then this is also for you. If, however, you are not a Top 10 team and want to have a chance to collect some hardware, then TC is not for you.
I'll post my thoughts on others in this thread later.
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Edited by - CoachMark on 05/15/2009 08:39:42 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 07:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by longhorn1
As far as who you play, we all left rec ball to play elite competition right?
If that was the case there wouldn't be divisions. Any coach who ran his kids out there to get beat 15-1 by the Top Ten teams 50 times a year ought to lose his team.
I would say to play at a higher level than rec ball and, once they hit 12 or 13 to better prepare them for HS. |
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ronicard
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 08:08:42
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Coach Mark,
I read and re-read each of your comments and could not find fault with any of them. I concur with the pitching rules sentiment especially. The limits are tight but are designed to help a pitcher's arm. But I think your point about one pitch constituting a full inning is spot on. If Tony and his guys would change that one rule, it would help the pitching immensely. Go to the 1/3 inning level like USSSA does and I think people would quit complaining about their pitching rules. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 08:58:14
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| Everybody wants to complain about USSSA but then everybody thinks TC ought to adopt a rankining system like USSSA. Then they think pitch counts ought to be like USSSA with 1/3 innings. Why not change the Triple Crown name to USSSA. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 18:17:31
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| I agree with 10BB except I say change the name and the directors and I mean all the directors. In other words throw out the USSSA directors that refuse to communicate or even answer questions and bring in the TC directors who at least communicate. We would then have the best of both these worlds and could play some ball. |
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ronicard
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 19:08:15
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quote:
Originally posted by 10 BB
Everybody wants to complain about USSSA but then everybody thinks TC ought to adopt a rankining system like USSSA. Then they think pitch counts ought to be like USSSA with 1/3 innings. Why not change the Triple Crown name to USSSA.
Maybe your reponse was tongue-in-cheek. If so, I apologize for missing the mark. But to me, it's about trying to make good things better:
- I like USSSA's ranking system. To me, it's the best thing they have going for them.
- I dislike USSSA's web site and the lack of a "face" that you contact to get issues resolved easily. Too bureaucratic for my taste.
- I like/dis-like the USTBA system of seeding into Ultimate, Gold, and Silver brackets. I like the 3 different sets of champions.
- I dislike the fact that if you happen to be 1 of the better teams but end up playing a tougher pool play, you can get knocked down into a lower bracket.
- I like Triple Crown's organizational structure.
- I dislike the pitching rules for Triple Crown.
So, if I were trying to come up with the "perfect system", what I was saying is that I think Triple Crown is doing a great job but could be made better if they're open to suggestions from the coaches who make up the teams that play in those tournaments.
But, hey, maybe you like all of the 3 systems just the way they are and don't want to try to improve any of them. Fair enough. |
Edited by - ronicard on 05/17/2009 21:07:28 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 19:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by 10 BB
Everybody wants to complain about USSSA but then everybody thinks TC ought to adopt a rankining system like USSSA. Then they think pitch counts ought to be like USSSA with 1/3 innings. Why not change the Triple Crown name to USSSA.
Because Triple Crown runs their tournaments better. USSSA has a lot of things right, but when you can't find out who is playing and you can't ever, before, during and after, get hold of the tournament director, that is a problem. Worse than the "issues" TC has. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 09:26:57
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I liked Triple Crowns 10U pools, game days/times much better this time around. Nice job, and keep it up!
I couldnt attend this one, so had to stay in touch via the internet, and they did a nice job of updating results.
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tater77bug
133 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 14:12:33
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| I tend to agree with Papa on USSSA....fundamentally it is a great system but like any business, communication is the key....there are Usssa director's that will not return phone calls or emails....I would say that is not across the board but it is very common in North Georgia for sure.... |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 16:48:42
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TC pitching rules force teams to develop pitching depth. Personally, I like that. I know that is harder for the younger age groups but in the long run, it will force teams to develop pitchers and not overuse the main guys. They are giving you enough innings for a pitcher to throw a complete game. If you need a pitcher to throw more than that, you may want to work some other guys and help them progress. As much complaining as I hear about pitching abuse, you would think people would really be standing up for TC's rules.
I agree it would be nice to see a points or ranking system, which would actually help take some of the subjectivity out of the pool ranking process for the directors.
Of course they could always put all the names in a hat and pull them out one by one and seed that way. There would be no subjectivity to that method. Although I would say the matchups would make most on here go ballistic. |
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Triple Crown Events
