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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2014 : 13:57:11
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I am not saying we shouldn't be tracking our pitchers and watching their arms...but why by inning?
As much as rec ball gets mocked for not being sophisticated at least there the pitchers are tracked by PITCHES.
I saw a game this weekend in a triple crown tourney and there was an uproar about a pitcher pitching in his 7th inning in 2 days...this was in the 4th game for his team, and it was the championship.
It was true, he had pitched 7 innings, but 2 of those innings he threw less than 3 pitches because he was there to get the last out of the inning....shouldn't that count as 1/3 of an inning?
His TOTAL pitch count in the "7 innings" he threw was 45. In his full innings he averaged 8 pitches an inning.
Are you telling me that his 12 year old arm was going to be damaged by another inning? Shouldn't that be the coaches decision??? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2014 : 20:27:55
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This is really a question for the tournament organizations. USSSA and Triple Crown are the two big ones. They have always used inning limits and have not really caught up to the newest understanding that pitch counts are a much more effective way to monitor the safety of the pitchers. I forget which is which, but one of the organizations counted one pitch as a complete inning and the other counted 1/3 innings. Either way, neither is an effective measure of the safety of the pitcher. One pitcher can average 30 pitches an inning, thereby throwing 210 pitches over their 7 innings, while another can average 10 pitches per inning and only throw only 70 pitches over 7 innings.
Until the youth tournament organizations step up and change their rules, coaches and parents are going to need to be responsible for the safety of their players, despite what the organizations deem the inning limits to be. |
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bballguy
224 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2014 : 08:17:28
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| hmmmmmmmm. You sound like you are justifying!!! |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2014 : 08:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Until the youth tournament organizations step up and change their rules, coaches and parents are going to need to be responsible for the safety of their players, despite what the organizations deem the inning limits to be.
^^^ This. As a parent, you have to be the one looking out for your kid's arm. Too many coaches look towards the win in a tournament versus the win of getting to watch one of their former players play at higher levels as they get older.
Last year, we let one of our guys throw 6 innings in one game but he only had 61 pitches. Tell anyone he threw 6 in one day though and their eyebrows raise. However, no one bats an eye at the kid who threw three against us in another game until we mention he threw 146 pitches across three innings... That is just as much on the coach as it was the parents but it is the stigma that has been created where 3 innings are ok and 6 - 7 are VERY bad even though all innings aren't created equal.
To answer the OP, its easier for the organizations to "monitor" by inning and even then they sometimes get it wrong. Imagine U$$$A umpires trying to track pitches - sometimes outs are enough of a challenge! :)
Last year was our first year at 10U travel and, despite what the organization says, we monitor out pitchers by pitch count.
We also look at the number of warm up/cool down periods the pitcher has gone through. For us, the number of game appearances carry a lot of weight when we consider how much rest to give our guys. Knowing your players as a coach, knowing your child as a parent, AND keeping it all in perspective is the best way to protect a kid's arm.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2014 : 10:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by bballguy
hmmmmmmmm. You sound like you are justifying!!!
How's that? Am I supposed to change USSSA and 3Crown's rules? Maybe you didn't read my whole post. I said it was the responsibility of the parents and coaches to keep pitches to a reasonable number.
Parents, educate yourselves and take responsibility. Coaches, educate yourselves and take responsibility. If you have to rely on someone else to dictate your child's safety, you are not doing your job as a parent or as a coach. If winning is more important to a coach than monitoring pitch counts and keeping their pitchers healthy, find another team to play on.
If your son throws 70 pitches over 7 innings in a tournament, great. You are saving your child's arm in the long run. If you allow your son to throw 160 pitches over 7 innings in a tournament, shame on you. You should have done something to stop that. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2014 : 12:46:34
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I have two boys that play and I have seen both of my boys be "overused" to different extents as they were younger and before I got more "involved". In most instances, the coaches were not bad coaches or trying to do anything wrong, they simply did not keep track of pitches. They had 12 or so kids in the dugout, they were busy and truly were just trying to manage the game at the moment and stay within the tournament rules.
Any one with a son that pitches should speak to their coach about what he feels like are reasonable pitching limits per day, outing, weekend. Make sure that your expectations and the coach's expectations are similar. Personally, I or my wife, almost always keep a pitch count for our boys and most of the team. We (politely and with his permission) simply give the coach a total pitch count at the end of each inning.
When they were younger, I had a coach pitch my younger son 90 pitches in 3 innings (not one of his better memories)in a pool play game. That triggered me to truly look into pitch counts etc. I never played ball so I really wasn't sure what was correct at the time. I called the coach and informed him that my son would not be able to pitch on Sunday and he honestly had no idea how many pitches had been thrown. everything worked out fine, he was a good coach but was new. Since that time he has done much better. Keep in mind that coaches are keeping track of twelve kids, batting orders, roster, pitching signs, etc. Parents can help in some ways and if done correctly, most coaches appreciate the help. Especially at the younger ages where most coaches are volunteers or dads and doing the best they can.
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ECBraves2015
31 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2014 : 14:14:37
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| Innings are the only way associations can limit pitching ... otherwise they would have to have an official at every game counting pitches ! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2014 : 15:04:33
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| Doesn't every team or every game that is played have a book kept on the game? I'm pretty sure that at ANY tournament game, the home team is required to keep a scoresheet. This is to be used by or referred to by the umpire in case there is a question about how many outs there are, what the count is, what the score is, substitutions, etc... This person who is keeping the book should also be keeping track of pitches. If an away coach in a game does not have someone keeping a book, all he would have to do is ask the official scorekeeper what the pitch count of his pitcher is after every inning. It wouldn't be that hard to do and the coach himself would not have to do it. Only ask the scorekeeper. |
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ITPBall
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2014 : 16:36:20
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| I'm sure most everyone reading this discussion has seen published recommendations on pitch count limits and guidelines for days' rest after pitching (e.g., one day rest after throwing 21-35 pitches for younger players), such as at amsi.com. As a practical matter, how are responsible teams and coaches implementing pitch limits and days' rest in tournament play where these recommendations are not rules? I assume most teams use these type of recommendations as guidelines and not rules inviolate, but would love to hear some thoughts about practical approaches taken by successful teams, particularly on days' rest and on pitching a kid in multiple games in the same day. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2014 : 14:53:42
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So...I get that we need to keep these kids arms healthy, but why is everyone so focused on pitchers? As said above...one day of rest after throwing 21-35 pitches. Okay, so what is that 2 innings, maybe 3? Meanwhile what about the kid who caught all of his 35 pitches, and the next kids 35 pitches? Catchers are suppose to throw back with speed to the pitcher...why aren't catcher's being tracked?
I don't understand how tournaments can be so rigid about pitch counts/innings pitched and we have to protect the kids arms and no one says anything about the kid who caught 3 games in one day. Why is one picked on but not the other? No 12 year old is throwing 90+mph in pitching, so what is all the hype about protecting the pitchers? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2014 : 15:19:37
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The honest answer? So some overzealous coach doesn't destroy a kid's arm to boost his own win/loss ego.
I feel like you do. What's the point of 3 innings to pitch the next day with a max of 6 in 2 days if the kid has only thrown 7-1- pitches an inning? Or the kid who has an infield completely blow up defensively who has to throw 50+ pitches in a single inning?
Answer: you can cheat at pitch count but it's hard to miscount innings.
And you are correct, a catcher shouldn't pitch and a pitcher should catch. Two different throwing mechanics altogether... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2014 : 16:30:30
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1st of all, NO catcher should catch 3 games in a day. Period. My son is in his 3rd year of college ball and I have never seen a catcher even catch a double header. If you have a coach allowing a catcher to catch 2 or 3 games in a day, find another coach.
2nd, a catcher is not throwing anywhere near as hard as a pitcher is. Even if he is zinging it back to the pitcher. Plus, he is not throwing off a mound. It has been shown through various studies that throwing off a mound puts more stress on a pitchers arm. It is often recommended that kids do a lot of throwing to get and keep their arm in shape, but NOT pitch off a mound outside of the recommended guidelines.
ASMI has studied the issue with pitchers. They found that the MAIN common denominator and cause for arm injuries is overuse and pitching while fatigued. They are the ones who came up with the recommended pitch counts and days rest formula.
The focus is on pitchers because they are the ones throwing off a mound and they are the ones throwing over and over with max (or close to it) effort. If a pitcher throws the ball 60 times in a game, every one of them are at or close to max effort. How many times does a SS or OF throw the ball during a game? SS may take 5 ground balls warm up between innings. They usually don't throw to 1st base with max effort. They may have 6 throws all game to 1st with max effort. Maybe. A routine ground ball may only take 50% effort to get the runner out.
And it's really not about throwing 90+, it's about velocity in relation to physical size/maturity. It may be harder on a 12 year old's arm to throw 70 than it is on a 21 year old's arm to throw 90. Kids are not adults and should not be treated that way.
Arm care should apply to everyone. If any player at any position develops a sore arm, it should be taken care of - not ignored. However, pitchers are the ones who throw the hardest the most and are most susceptible to injury, that is why the focus is on them. |
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Why are we counting innings against pitchers?
