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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2015 : 14:08:32
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POP Times... POP Times... POP Times...
Did you get his pop time? How about, did he make a clean throw during a "game", with the gear on, with a hitter in the box (obstructing his view), while dealing with an erratic pre-teen hurler on the bump? Oh, you want to know his POP time?
I grabbed Pudge Rodriguez at a 1.8 during a playoff game; and Pudge is arguably one of the best to ever play the position. Your eyes will determine a young man's arm strength. POP times can be improved w/strength & agility drills.
Did he throw the runner out?
Was it a clean throw that the SS could handle?
How is his footwork?
Does he labor with the gear on?
Is his transfer decent?
What about his pure arm strength, does he long toss?
Parents, POP times are definitely a tool used to measure catchers, but it's not the key to catching success. Focus on the components that make up a good POP time (balance, footwork, agility, flexibility, core strength, hip & trunk strength, quick transfer, clean release, and definitely pure arm strength).
Let's not fall in love with a good POP time when a young man is in a simulated environment. By all means, build upon it and applaud progress, but dive into the root of the measurement.
Catchers can improve at a rapid pace. It takes hard consistent work and you definitely need instruction. There are also some great videos on YouTube.
Remember - the stopwatch is not the opponent.
Have a great weekend!
www.FiveToolEvals.com
www.Facebook.com/FiveToolEvals
Twitter: @FiveToolEvals |
Edited by - FiveToolEvals on 12/12/2015 14:21:29 |
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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2015 : 17:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
5 Tools, Great post! I agree with everything you just said. "But" don't take this stat for granted! It is THE stat on catchers that is taken 100% of the time by scouts and coaches. I have watched them do it over and over and over the last 2 years. Its THE catcher drill in every showcase.
Yes there are several other traits as a catcher that are looked for and at, blocking ability, receiving skills, leadership, how do you manage your pitchers, the game. Can you call your own pitches?
In this position your "make up" is almost as important as your ability, if not as important.
Here are a couple of links to my favorite catchers pop and catcher skill videos;
https://youtu.be/8yhAmG0p8g8
https://youtu.be/dogcA-9QAXI
Again, Great post!
Hey Bball - thanks for sharing the videos. I always carry my stopwatch and I definitely record "in-game" POP times. I just want parents to remember that the key ingredient in the recipe is arm strength. I've been approached by parents while I'm scouting a minor league game and they've asked me what a good "POP" time for an 11 yr old is. I have no answer for that.
I take note of pop times, but I've never been asked what a catcher's pop time is during the draft - and I've drafted a few of them. POP time never comes up.
Now I do like watching video of catchers coming out of their crouch and making throws down to second. I pay attention to their footwork, balance, explosiveness, and body control.
POP time is truly a necessary showcase measurable, but it mostly comes into play during:
"Advance Scouting" - (pitcher's release time + catcher's "true in-game" pop time vs baserunner's steal time). I absolutely without question secure in-game pop times on every catcher that I scout in pro ball and I obtain release times of pitchers; as well as steal times on base runners.
My concern is that I don't want parents to put extreme weight on amateur showcase pop times; I want the players to focus on the ingredients that theoretically produce a good pop time.
Thanks again Bball - you are keeping me sharp lol! I like the video links as well. Do you coach any of the young players in the Skillshow footage? |
Edited by - FiveToolEvals on 12/13/2015 18:00:50 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2015 : 08:16:46
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I think at age 11 the time aspect isn't that important. The important things are:
1. Did he throw the ball in a way that the SS could catch it, even if it bounced?
2. Does the catcher throw over to third and first to let the base runners know that this is his diamond, not theirs?
3. When the pitcher is getting eaten alive does the catcher have enough charisma to walk the ball back and calm the pitcher down with a joke?
Did you notice I didn't say "That he gets that runner out?"...at age 11 a HUGE part of getting the runner out is how fast that pitcher got the catcher the ball. Very rarely have I heard the words come out of a coaches mouth "You have got to get that ball to the catcher faster!" However, I have heard "Calm down, take your time, and deliver a strike" very often. That right there is why pop times just don't matter until high school because only then are you really dealing with pitchers who can get the catcher the ball in a fast enough way that the base runner MIGHT be thrown out.
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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2015 : 15:50:11
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| I just watched Luke's videos again (quite a few times - lol). He falls into that group of defenders to where I don't need a stopwatch (because he has visible weapons) - which in turn makes me keep my stopwatch locked & loaded. I'm sure his pop times are sub-2.0 even during warmups (I just saw the 1.77). Fun to watch! Easy to see that you guys have tirelessly worked on the ingredients. I know that he loves wearing those tools back there. His body control is very impressive. Thanks again for sharing those Bball. |
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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2015 : 15:52:11
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"Arm strength IS important no doubt, but receiving, transfer and footwork with athleticism and quickness will carry a player past just a strong arm."
Excellent points! |
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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2015 : 16:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I think at age 11 the time aspect isn't that important. The important things are:
1. Did he throw the ball in a way that the SS could catch it, even if it bounced?
2. Does the catcher throw over to third and first to let the base runners know that this is his diamond, not theirs?
3. When the pitcher is getting eaten alive does the catcher have enough charisma to walk the ball back and calm the pitcher down with a joke?
Did you notice I didn't say "That he gets that runner out?"...at age 11 a HUGE part of getting the runner out is how fast that pitcher got the catcher the ball. Very rarely have I heard the words come out of a coaches mouth "You have got to get that ball to the catcher faster!" However, I have heard "Calm down, take your time, and deliver a strike" very often. That right there is why pop times just don't matter until high school because only then are you really dealing with pitchers who can get the catcher the ball in a fast enough way that the base runner MIGHT be thrown out.
Great points - especially regarding the younger age groups. It makes a great deal of sense. I'm hoping that those 11 yr-olds can simply play a comfortable game of "game-time" catch... the rest will hopefully fall in line. |
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FiveToolEvals
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 02:26:48
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Not putting the cart before the horse, but here is a clip of some serious upper level framing by Caleb Joseph (Baltimore Orioles). Soft hands, yet secure and firm within the K-zone. **Hope this link plays. If not, Google the young guy.
https://twitter.com/catch_and_throw/status/676576425365733376 |
Edited by - FiveToolEvals on 12/15/2015 08:58:11 |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 17:35:28
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That's nice work right there quote:
Originally posted by FiveToolEvals
Not putting the cart before the horse, but here is a clip of some serious upper level framing by Caleb Joseph (Baltimore Orioles). Soft hands, yet secure and firm within the K-zone. **Hope this link plays. If not, Google the young guy.
https://twitter.com/catch_and_throw/status/676576425365733376
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volball22
43 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2016 : 23:36:17
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| Unfortunately the pop times they provide aren't even close to accurate. I would be willing to be the Top catcher in the 2016 class is no better than a 1.9. The way they record the times allows the catchers to cheat. IMO the best way to combat that is to actually take a baseball and bounce it to the catcher which keeps him from cheating and coming out of crouch early. If you watch most catchers that are recorded by PG that are below 2 they are receiving the ball while standing up, not realistic at all. They should call it Pitch Out Pop Time! |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2016 : 09:55:40
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Some do cheat a little bit, but when the video is there its pretty easy to see who is and isn't. As shown in this video, these 4 guys do nothing in the way of cheating, They stay in the squat until they receive the ball. Almost every catcher I have seen at the big PG events do it the right way and if its a blatant cheat they ask them to redo it the right way so that they can get an accurate time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhAmG0p8g8&feature=youtu.be
Several guys do it the right way and are legit sub 1.90. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
And your suggested method of doing pop time drills ,, well We have been going to pro and college workouts and showcases for 2 years now. Never seen anyone, ANYONE intentionally bounce balls to a catcher in a pop time drill, EVER. So Maybe you should try and market that technique to the rest of the baseball world.
quote:
Originally posted by volball22
Unfortunately the pop times they provide aren't even close to accurate. I would be willing to be the Top catcher in the 2016 class is no better than a 1.9. The way they record the times allows the catchers to cheat. IMO the best way to combat that is to actually take a baseball and bounce it to the catcher which keeps him from cheating and coming out of crouch early. If you watch most catchers that are recorded by PG that are below 2 they are receiving the ball while standing up, not realistic at all. They should call it Pitch Out Pop Time!
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Edited by - BBall123 on 01/06/2016 10:02:03 |
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volball22
43 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2016 : 13:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
Some do cheat a little bit, but when the video is there its pretty easy to see who is and isn't. As shown in this video, these 4 guys do nothing in the way of cheating, They stay in the squat until they receive the ball. Almost every catcher I have seen at the big PG events do it the right way and if its a blatant cheat they ask them to redo it the right way so that they can get an accurate time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhAmG0p8g8&feature=youtu.be
Several guys do it the right way and are legit sub 1.90. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
And your suggested method of doing pop time drills ,, well We have been going to pro and college workouts and showcases for 2 years now. Never seen anyone, ANYONE intentionally bounce balls to a catcher in a pop time drill, EVER. So Maybe you should try and market that technique to the rest of the baseball world.
quote:
Originally posted by volball22
Unfortunately the pop times they provide aren't even close to accurate. I would be willing to be the Top catcher in the 2016 class is no better than a 1.9. The way they record the times allows the catchers to cheat. IMO the best way to combat that is to actually take a baseball and bounce it to the catcher which keeps him from cheating and coming out of crouch early. If you watch most catchers that are recorded by PG that are below 2 they are receiving the ball while standing up, not realistic at all. They should call it Pitch Out Pop Time!
No sour grapes chief, my son doesn't even catch. I'm just stating facts. I guess the 4 guys in that video are a tick behind Pudge and Yadier with your logic. Come on Maaaan! |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2016 : 12:39:43
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I have offered documented FACTS and video. Your "opinion" has no facts to support it so,,. What position does your son play and what age group are you currently in? quote:
Originally posted by volball22
quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
Some do cheat a little bit, but when the video is there its pretty easy to see who is and isn't. As shown in this video, these 4 guys do nothing in the way of cheating, They stay in the squat until they receive the ball. Almost every catcher I have seen at the big PG events do it the right way and if its a blatant cheat they ask them to redo it the right way so that they can get an accurate time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhAmG0p8g8&feature=youtu.be
Several guys do it the right way and are legit sub 1.90. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
And your suggested method of doing pop time drills ,, well We have been going to pro and college workouts and showcases for 2 years now. Never seen anyone, ANYONE intentionally bounce balls to a catcher in a pop time drill, EVER. So Maybe you should try and market that technique to the rest of the baseball world.
quote:
Originally posted by volball22
Unfortunately the pop times they provide aren't even close to accurate. I would be willing to be the Top catcher in the 2016 class is no better than a 1.9. The way they record the times allows the catchers to cheat. IMO the best way to combat that is to actually take a baseball and bounce it to the catcher which keeps him from cheating and coming out of crouch early. If you watch most catchers that are recorded by PG that are below 2 they are receiving the ball while standing up, not realistic at all. They should call it Pitch Out Pop Time!
No sour grapes chief, my son doesn't even catch. I'm just stating facts. I guess the 4 guys in that video are a tick behind Pudge and Yadier with your logic. Come on Maaaan!
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Edited by - BBall123 on 01/14/2016 18:45:13 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2016 : 07:54:25
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The most interesting think about this board is you never really know who you are talking to.
volball22 if you knew who BBall123's kid was you would tuck your tail between your legs, bow your head, say you were sorry for speaking about things you really don't know about, and walk away from this conversation.
BBall123 congrats on your son's Georgia PG Ranking, VERY impressive young man! |
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Kory
50 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2016 : 11:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The most interesting think about this board is you never really know who you are talking to.
volball22 if you knew who BBall123's kid was you would tuck your tail between your legs, bow your head, say you were sorry for speaking about things you really don't know about, and walk away from this conversation.
BBall123 congrats on your son's Georgia PG Ranking, VERY impressive young man!
Agreed! Congrats on everything BBall123!!!. |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2016 : 11:38:14
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CC Girl :-) I am not taking his comments personally. Its just that he is Wrong. There are many fantastic young men that have worked their butts off to do what they do. The Perfect Game does a fantastic job at running their events and they work very hard to record the correct stats so that they can maintain their reputation. I have witnessed this repeatedly with my own eyes, I have timed many many pop times, 60 times, first to thirds and on and on. Their are absolutely catchers in these upper age groups who throw sub 2.00 pop times in drills and games, several of them actually. 2.00 is average these days.
I asked what age they were in because when we were in the younger age groups I thought I knew it all. But I had no idea the talent that was out there in the upper age groups.
My son has played with some of the best 17/18 yr olds in the world this year and let me tell you, there is a LOT of amazing baseball talent out there. |
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volball22
43 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2016 : 15:51:23
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First off CaCOGirl, I know exactly who his son is. His son is a very good high school catcher and a PG All American. With that being said there is no reason for me to tuck my tail, bow my head and say I'm sorry. As mentioned, I still question a majority of the pop times that Perfect Game records, same with fastball velocities as a whole. I've seen plenty of kids 90+, but I've also seen kids that can't bust 85 showing up with some very inaccurate velocities.
BBall123 my son currently plays 14U for a Major team in Atlanta. He plays 3B/SS and pitches. On a side note, my suggestion for the drill referring to keeping catchers from cheating came from the current AA manager in the Padres organization; he has over 30 years of professional baseball experience. Not saying your son cheated and by the video he didn't, my point is most do and when scouts/coaches don't see it live it is easier to question the number. Best of luck to your son and thanks for not jumping on what CaCOGirl tried to turn into a personal affair.
Thanks,
George Ebel
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The most interesting think about this board is you never really know who you are talking to.
volball22 if you knew who BBall123's kid was you would tuck your tail between your legs, bow your head, say you were sorry for speaking about things you really don't know about, and walk away from this conversation.
BBall123 congrats on your son's Georgia PG Ranking, VERY impressive young man!
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2016 : 18:41:20
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as my son was often told..framing and blocking get you to college and hitting will get you to the pro's. They seldom talked pop time.
I was at a game he was at and he threw a runner out at 2nd and i heard 3 scouts talk..honest to goodness true story.
scout 1. I have 2.0 what do you have
scout 2. i had 1.95
scout 3. what the hell do i care what his time was he threw the kid out
in game is a lot different than on the field at a showcase and most steals are not on catchers. His HS coach often said if a kid or 2 steal a base we can live. IF passed balls get by we cant afford those.
My son went to a PG showcase once and i had to tell them they had a lefty receiving throws and he was on the wrong side of 2nd. And they do that for a living LOL |
Edited by - whits23 on 01/18/2016 22:00:12 |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2016 : 20:46:35
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I think we all need some Baseball  , I know I do. It was 30 when tryouts started tonight, 22 wind chill. It got MUCH colder real fast as the sun went down, Yep its high school baseball season in Ga.
Best of luck to your son George. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 07:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by volball22
First off CaCOGirl, I know exactly who his son is. His son is a very good high school catcher and a PG All American. With that being said there is no reason for me to tuck my tail, bow my head and say I'm sorry. As mentioned, I still question a majority of the pop times that Perfect Game records, same with fastball velocities as a whole. I've seen plenty of kids 90+, but I've also seen kids that can't bust 85 showing up with some very inaccurate velocities.
BBall123 my son currently plays 14U for a Major team in Atlanta. He plays 3B/SS and pitches. On a side note, my suggestion for the drill referring to keeping catchers from cheating came from the current AA manager in the Padres organization; he has over 30 years of professional baseball experience. Not saying your son cheated and by the video he didn't, my point is most do and when scouts/coaches don't see it live it is easier to question the number. Best of luck to your son and thanks for not jumping on what CaCOGirl tried to turn into a personal affair.
Thanks,
George Ebel
Volball22, if you know who his son is, AND your son is not a catcher, AND your son is just now playing on the big field...then why are you arguing with him?
"Unfortunately the pop times they provide aren't even close to accurate. I would be willing to be the Top catcher in the 2016 class is no better than a 1.9."
"I guess the 4 guys in that video are a tick behind Pudge and Yadier with your logic. Come on Maaaan!"
It's like a new graduate telling a seasoned teacher how best to deal with children. It just makes no sense.
BBall123 has been there and done that and I for one am grateful that he comes on here to tell 9u-16u what's going on in the real world. We often times get caught up in our static world of forums and internet discussion but we haven't lived it, and we don't know anything more than the newly graduated teacher does. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 10:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by whits23
as my son was often told..framing and blocking get you to college and hitting will get you to the pro's. They seldom talked pop time.
I was at a game he was at and he threw a runner out at 2nd and i heard 3 scouts talk..honest to goodness true story.
scout 1. I have 2.0 what do you have
scout 2. i had 1.95
scout 3. what the hell do i care what his time was he threw the kid out
in game is a lot different than on the field at a showcase and most steals are not on catchers. His HS coach often said if a kid or 2 steal a base we can live. IF passed balls get by we cant afford those.
My son went to a PG showcase once and i had to tell them they had a lefty receiving throws and he was on the wrong side of 2nd. And they do that for a living LOL
These are the little jewels I look for. My son's dream is to get drafted. He hopes to do that as a power hitting catcher. This type of post helps confirm that he is working on the right things. (and like the rest of you, we don't change our approach based on one post. The more information the better.) |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 11:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by whits23
as my son was often told..framing and blocking get you to college and hitting will get you to the pro's. They seldom talked pop time.
I was at a game he was at and he threw a runner out at 2nd and i heard 3 scouts talk..honest to goodness true story.
scout 1. I have 2.0 what do you have
scout 2. i had 1.95
scout 3. what the hell do i care what his time was he threw the kid out
in game is a lot different than on the field at a showcase and most steals are not on catchers. His HS coach often said if a kid or 2 steal a base we can live. IF passed balls get by we cant afford those.
My son went to a PG showcase once and i had to tell them they had a lefty receiving throws and he was on the wrong side of 2nd. And they do that for a living LOL
These are the little jewels I look for. My son's dream is to get drafted. He hopes to do that as a power hitting catcher. This type of post helps confirm that he is working on the right things. (and like the rest of you, we don't change our approach based on one post. The more information the better.)
I've heard that the ability to frame a LOW pitch is a crowd pleaser for recruiting. Georgia has some very fine catchers in the class of 2016 it will be interesting to see how the draft plays out...you know after they get those pesky pitchers throwing 95+ out of the way ;- ) |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 11:34:31
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| Whits23, You are absolutely correct. |
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LFconcessions
29 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 16:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
I think we all need some Baseball , I know I do. It was 30 when tryouts started tonight, 22 wind chill. It got MUCH colder real fast as the sun went down, Yep its high school baseball season in Ga.
New coach at my sons school had the kids at the field at 9a, and he got home when it was dark.
 {the blue cold frowny face}
Can't wait to break out the ski jacket we bought last year for the 5:55p games.
Best of luck, and health, to all this spring! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 16:47:48
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My son is not a catcher, he's a pitcher. But we have been through a lot of baseball over the years. I'll give you my opinion. Do pop times matter? To a certain extent. If you have a really bad pop time, you will NEVER throw out runners. I'd be inclined to listen to Bball123 since his son seems to be one of the better catchers around. I don't know who he is, just judging by the comments here.
Anyway, a pop time might get you into the game, but it won't keep you there or really get a leg up on your competition. It is your bat that will give you the leg up. I can think of many, many examples of catchers that were FAR inferior to their competition behind the plate, but their bat was better - and they are the ones who played. At my son's own college, there is a kid this year who is a senior. EVERY SINGLE pitcher I have talked with over the 4 years my son has played there has stated that their favorite catcher to throw to was this kid. But he has hardly played at all in his first 3 years at the school. Why? He can't hit. Another kid my son played summer ball with was a marginal catcher. Had a great arm, but you never knew where it was going. My son hated throwing to him because he was lazy and was not good at dropping and blocking. But he hit for power. Big D1 SEC school came out to see him play summer between Jr. and Sr. year and he hit two home runs. They signed him. He got drafted after his junior year. Why? Because he could hit.
I could go on and on. But, my advice if you want your player to advance, work on the stick. If he loves to catch and that's what he wants to do, let him work on that. But don't ignore the bat. Your catching skills and pop time will keep you in the mix as a potential catcher, but it is the bat that will get you in the lineup...
Once again, just my opinion. But I have seen it enough to know that it is an educated opinion. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 18:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My son is not a catcher, he's a pitcher. But we have been through a lot of baseball over the years. I'll give you my opinion. Do pop times matter? To a certain extent. If you have a really bad pop time, you will NEVER throw out runners. I'd be inclined to listen to Bball123 since his son seems to be one of the better catchers around. I don't know who he is, just judging by the comments here.
Anyway, a pop time might get you into the game, but it won't keep you there or really get a leg up on your competition. It is your bat that will give you the leg up. I can think of many, many examples of catchers that were FAR inferior to their competition behind the plate, but their bat was better - and they are the ones who played. At my son's own college, there is a kid this year who is a senior. EVERY SINGLE pitcher I have talked with over the 4 years my son has played there has stated that their favorite catcher to throw to was this kid. But he has hardly played at all in his first 3 years at the school. Why? He can't hit. Another kid my son played summer ball with was a marginal catcher. Had a great arm, but you never knew where it was going. My son hated throwing to him because he was lazy and was not good at dropping and blocking. But he hit for power. Big D1 SEC school came out to see him play summer between Jr. and Sr. year and he hit two home runs. They signed him. He got drafted after his junior year. Why? Because he could hit.
I could go on and on. But, my advice if you want your player to advance, work on the stick. If he loves to catch and that's what he wants to do, let him work on that. But don't ignore the bat. Your catching skills and pop time will keep you in the mix as a potential catcher, but it is the bat that will get you in the lineup...
Once again, just my opinion. But I have seen it enough to know that it is an educated opinion.
I totally agree and You even see it at the MLB level.....How many times have you seen Major league players moving around in positions so they can stay in the lineup? Still, Pop Times are being used during the defensive analysis. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 20:16:13
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I agree and disagree with some of the bat stuff..i agree 100 percent if you can hit they will find a spot for you.>IE manny being manny LOL
But they will sacrifice hitting at CF. SS and Catcher but if you can hit and play those spots its show me the money time. most catcher get so beat up they struggle at the plate. How many times even in travel or HS do you see a catcher miss out on BP cause he was in the pen catching some wild thrower beating him up. Obviously i too love catcher and the parents who complain on passed balls when they do not know a wild pitch from a passed ball or those that see a catcher miss a ball thrown home who do no know how hard it is to catch and tag with a MITT vs a Glove are morons as well. It goes with the job though. |
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POP Times!
