| Author |
 Topic  |
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2016 : 22:54:01
|
Here's what I think the parents of some of the younger kids don't realize. When it comes to moving on to the next level (say college for now), there are WAY more players available than there are spots on college rosters. The competition is fierce for a roster spot and even more competitive for play time once you're on a roster. For college (and HS for that matter), you are competing with other freshmen, sophomores, juniors and seniors for one spot as a starting catcher. In college you can add red shirts as well. So five years worth of players. And every year they get new players in to compete for these spots. Believe me, all these players can play. Every catcher on the roster was a stud in travel and HS. Their measurables behind the plate will all be comparable. What sets them apart is how they hit. Behind the plate, they are usually viewed as interchangeable.
It's much harder to see this in pre HS baseball or even in many HSs. This is because of what you're saying whits23. But when you move on to college, you don't have guys who can't drop and block or can't throw a runner out or don't know how to frame a pitch. They can all do this. Yes, some better than others, but it really does come down to the bat. If you are heads above the other guys at the plate, you will play - even if your catching skills aren't quite as good as the other guy. And I would say, overall, the same holds true for the other positions as well. Including SS and CF. Unless you have MLB defensive skills. Even then, if you can't hit, you may still have to fight for a spot with the guy who can rake.
You may not believe me right now. But at some point you may see what I am talking about. |
 |
|
|
caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 01:34:07
|
There is probably a little bit of validity throughout most of the posts in this thread. POP times, throwing acuracy, receiving and blocking skills, hitting, leadership, running a defense, handling different pitcher personalities and preferences, communication, IQ, durability - they are all important and in some cases (especially high school and college) it may come down to a coaching preference. But make no mistake about it, catching is a DEFENSIVE position! I can assure you that a great defensive catcher with great leadership skills and a high IQ is NOT "interchangeable" with the other catchers on the roster.
In professional baseball (and for the majority, college too) pitching and defense wins - period! And since baseball is not set up to have different offensive and defensive players, teams are willing to sacrifice a hitter for a better defensive player. It's much easier to prevent runs then to score them and the object is to have more than the other team - NET!
Just take a look at the stats and history. Why do you think Greg Maddux had a lifetime .211 hitter (Charlie O'Brien) and .251 hitter (Eddie Perez) be his personal catchers? There was only one catcher in MLB last year that hit over .300 (Buster Posey). But there were over 20 that didn't hit over .250 and caught more than 85 games. One catcher caught 136 games, hit .221 and had 131 strikeouts!!
Most guys who can really hit as catchers become 1bs, 3bs, corner OFs. There are exceptions (Posey is one)!
Perfect Game is a reputable organization and is very instrumental in bringing a large number of players together to compete so they can be scouted in game speed situations in a central location. However, we never looked at a Perfect Game POP time to determine a scholarship offer or draftability. There are hundreds of catchers given scholarships and drafted every year that NEVER attend a Perfect Game or any showcase.
Forums like these are great to share ideas, pick brains, find a team and just discuss this great game. But I'd like to give advice to parents - no matter how proud you are of your son and his accomplishments, refrain from posting anything specific about them to where people know who he is and consequently knows who you are. It really just becomes added pressure in a sport that is already the most mentally challenging game of the major sports. There are SO many players who were "All ______" that don't make "IT" (whatever "IT" is). The added pressure of living up to that billing PLUS parents public promotion, no matter how well-intended, is ill-advised.
I know who the player is that is referred to in this string and he is really talented with a lot of upside! I wish him the best this spring and at the next level. |
|
|
|
BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 09:31:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My son is not a catcher, he's a pitcher. But we have been through a lot of baseball over the years. I'll give you my opinion. Do pop times matter? To a certain extent. If you have a really bad pop time, you will NEVER throw out runners. I'd be inclined to listen to Bball123 since his son seems to be one of the better catchers around. I don't know who he is, just judging by the comments here.
Anyway, a pop time might get you into the game, but it won't keep you there or really get a leg up on your competition. It is your bat that will give you the leg up. I can think of many, many examples of catchers that were FAR inferior to their competition behind the plate, but their bat was better - and they are the ones who played. At my son's own college, there is a kid this year who is a senior. EVERY SINGLE pitcher I have talked with over the 4 years my son has played there has stated that their favorite catcher to throw to was this kid. But he has hardly played at all in his first 3 years at the school. Why? He can't hit. Another kid my son played summer ball with was a marginal catcher. Had a great arm, but you never knew where it was going. My son hated throwing to him because he was lazy and was not good at dropping and blocking. But he hit for power. Big D1 SEC school came out to see him play summer between Jr. and Sr. year and he hit two home runs. They signed him. He got drafted after his junior year. Why? Because he could hit.
I could go on and on. But, my advice if you want your player to advance, work on the stick. If he loves to catch and that's what he wants to do, let him work on that. But don't ignore the bat. Your catching skills and pop time will keep you in the mix as a potential catcher, but it is the bat that will get you in the lineup...
Once again, just my opinion. But I have seen it enough to know that it is an educated opinion.
If ever you needed a proof source for your statement, look no further than Christian Bethancourt. His pop time, athleticism, and arm strength are unquestioned. However, he can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Unless you are a pitcher, the bat is a required tool. How many subpar fielders are everyday players because they have a great bat? That number is surely greater than the opposite. low pop times are great too have but you better back it up at the plate. |
|
|
|
BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 10:49:45
|
This is a great post, A lot of wisdom in it. This topic started out as a discussion about Pop times, but took on a life of its own. But I see through the progression of this topic that this was a mistake, You cant take it back now and I wish I had not commented.
One thing is for sure, its pressure packed on everyone involved, especially the kid.
( Forums like these are great to share ideas, pick brains, find a team and just discuss this great game. But I'd like to give advice to parents - no matter how proud you are of your son and his accomplishments, refrain from posting anything specific about them to where people know who he is and consequently knows who you are. It really just becomes added pressure in a sport that is already the most mentally challenging game of the major sports. There are SO many players who were "All ______" that don't make "IT" (whatever "IT" is). The added pressure of living up to that billing PLUS parents public promotion, no matter how well-intended, is ill-advised.quote:
Originally posted by caughtstealing
There is probably a little bit of validity throughout most of the posts in this thread. POP times, throwing acuracy, receiving and blocking skills, hitting, leadership, running a defense, handling different pitcher personalities and preferences, communication, IQ, durability - they are all important and in some cases (especially high school and college) it may come down to a coaching preference. But make no mistake about it, catching is a DEFENSIVE position! I can assure you that a great defensive catcher with great leadership skills and a high IQ is NOT "interchangeable" with the other catchers on the roster.
In professional baseball (and for the majority, college too) pitching and defense wins - period! And since baseball is not set up to have different offensive and defensive players, teams are willing to sacrifice a hitter for a better defensive player. It's much easier to prevent runs then to score them and the object is to have more than the other team - NET!
Just take a look at the stats and history. Why do you think Greg Maddux had a lifetime .211 hitter (Charlie O'Brien) and .251 hitter (Eddie Perez) be his personal catchers? There was only one catcher in MLB last year that hit over .300 (Buster Posey). But there were over 20 that didn't hit over .250 and caught more than 85 games. One catcher caught 136 games, hit .221 and had 131 strikeouts!!
Most guys who can really hit as catchers become 1bs, 3bs, corner OFs. There are exceptions (Posey is one)!
Perfect Game is a reputable organization and is very instrumental in bringing a large number of players together to compete so they can be scouted in game speed situations in a central location. However, we never looked at a Perfect Game POP time to determine a scholarship offer or draftability. There are hundreds of catchers given scholarships and drafted every year that NEVER attend a Perfect Game or any showcase.
Forums like these are great to share ideas, pick brains, find a team and just discuss this great game. But I'd like to give advice to parents - no matter how proud you are of your son and his accomplishments, refrain from posting anything specific about them to where people know who he is and consequently knows who you are. It really just becomes added pressure in a sport that is already the most mentally challenging game of the major sports. There are SO many players who were "All ______" that don't make "IT" (whatever "IT" is). The added pressure of living up to that billing PLUS parents public promotion, no matter how well-intended, is ill-advised.
I know who the player is that is referred to in this string and he is really talented with a lot of upside! I wish him the best this spring and at the next level.
|
Edited by - BBall123 on 01/20/2016 11:02:32 |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 11:25:52
|
Caught stealing, I agree that all the skills of the catcher are important. As the dad of a pitcher, I know how important that is. My point is that the higher up the ladder you go, the differences in those skills become incrementally smaller. Is Javy Lopez such an inferior catcher than Eddie Perez that Greg Maddux wouldn't throw to him? My guess is not. Javy was the Braves #1 catcher because he hit better than Eddie. Maybe Maddux just liked or had a better relationship with Eddie. Javy was a lifetime .287. Eddie was lifetime .253.
When you get to college or the pros, everyone there is a good catcher. Unless that player's skills behind the plate FAR outweigh the other catchers skills, the guy with the better stick/more power is going to play...
In all honesty, how often do you see a player with a FAR better bat sit the bench while a player with slightly better defensive skills plays? Not often. Brian McCann is another good example of this. He has always been criticized as not being a very good defensive catcher. But his bat has made him the #1 catcher on two pretty darned good MLB teams. And he's made millions of dollars doing it. |
|
|
|
Checkswing
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 12:53:20
|
@bballman, I agree with you. A coach can't stand to sit a hitter. There are not as many pure hitters in the game because the pitching is so much better. When you add the dominate pitching, speed of the outfielders, and arms of infielders it hard to put 3 hits together in 1 inning. That's why the power hitters are such a prize possession. The better hitters will normally get the start.
I don't post often, but I do read on here. I understand your son is at CSU? I am curious what is expected out of college players after their season ends. My son signed with UWG and the coach mentioned finding him a league after the season ends. He said he could stay with a family depending on what league he played in. I didn't wont to look like the concerned dad on the recruit visit so I just listened. Maybe I should start a new forum on this. It's his senior year of high school so I've got some time. Share your thoughts and experience on this if don't mind.
Thx |
|
|
|
in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 16:09:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by caughtstealing
Why do you think Greg Maddux had a lifetime .211 hitter (Charlie O'Brien) and .251 hitter (Eddie Perez) be his personal catchers?
If you ever get the opportunity to speak with Leo Mazzone, ask him why O'Brien and Perez were his catchers. I've heard it directly from him on a couple of occasions. It has much more to do with the individual who wasn't catching him. Very entertaining and a much different answer that what you pose. It wasn't because these two were better defensively. |
|
|
|
in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 16:14:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Checkswing
@bballman, I agree with you. A coach can't stand to sit a hitter. There are not as many pure hitters in the game because the pitching is so much better. When you add the dominate pitching, speed of the outfielders, and arms of infielders it hard to put 3 hits together in 1 inning. That's why the power hitters are such a prize possession. The better hitters will normally get the start.
I don't post often, but I do read on here. I understand your son is at CSU? I am curious what is expected out of college players after their season ends. My son signed with UWG and the coach mentioned finding him a league after the season ends. He said he could stay with a family depending on what league he played in. I didn't wont to look like the concerned dad on the recruit visit so I just listened. Maybe I should start a new forum on this. It's his senior year of high school so I've got some time. Share your thoughts and experience on this if don't mind.
Thx
Checkswing,
If you haven't previously found this forum, certainly check it out now. MANY posters with kids in high school, college, pro's, etc., and will give you a wealth of great info (and you'll find bballman an active poster on that site too).
http://community.hsbaseballweb.com/forums |
|
|
|
caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 21:32:14
|
I do know Leo and I have heard the stories. That's why things like relationship skills, communication (verbal and non-verbal) and IQ came before their ability to hit. Those to me are included on the defensive side of the equation. I know that with those guys he would dictate pitch location for the next pitch just by the way he would hold his glove or stand before the catcher threw the ball back to him. Other catchers on the staff could not adapt.
The Bethancourt example makes my point exactly. Here's a guy who caught/played at the highest level who was never a very good hitter. Obviously you can't hit .095 and keep your starting job - it is a NET game, but he wasn't on a big league roster and given an opportunity because of his ability to hit!
The Poseys, Piazzas, Munsons, Benchs are the exceptions. Do you know that David Ross made $2.25 million dollars last year as a 38 year old .228 lifetime hitter?
|
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 22:31:12
|
But there is a reason O'Brien and Perez were not everyday catchers. AND there's a reason why David Ross is not an everyday catcher. It's because they are .211, .251 and .221 career hitters. If you want to aspire to be a career backup catcher, focus all your energy and resources solely on catching. If you want to be an everyday catcher, focus more on your hitting. Yes, David Ross may have made $2.25 million. But Brian McCann is making $17 million and is arguably a catcher with inferior catching skills. Why? Because he can hit.
I see it all the time at the college level as well. The better hitters play more. Period. |
|
|
|
hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2016 : 07:04:03
|
| Mike Piazza threw out about 23% of baserunners but could rake. #HoF |
|
|
|
caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2016 : 10:23:05
|
No one said hitting is not important - it's very important! However, I think you missing the point! McCann and Piazza were good defensive catchers! If they weren't, they would have not been regular MLB catchers. The initial point of the thread was that POP times are important but not the only thing to look at or work on if you want to play catcher at a higher level.
You cannot make it to high level/professional baseball as a LF or 1b if you are not an offensive dude! You can as a catcher!
It is a NET game! Because he had the power tool, the Braves tried to sneak Gaddis behind the plate on occasion (2013-2014) But no matter how much power (hitting) he contributed, the NET result of him being back there was not good enough. That's why he moved to the AL last year and didn't play one game at C.
Again, hitting is extremely important to work on and can certainly make EVERY player more marketable to any team. But there are zero 38 year old .212 career hitters in professional baseball playing LF. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
POP Times!
