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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2018 : 17:46:01
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Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
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Originally posted by Punishers
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Originally posted by bama21
Let me say this about "height", there are a lot of preconceived notions about a player's height and how projectable that player is. This concept is engrained into us by everything you read about players and what scouts are looking for. PG does this all the time, there are many kids given high rankings and grades because the player is "projectable"....ie the kid is 6'3 to 6'6" even though they are only throwing mid 80's. If you had a 5'9" to 6'0" kid with similar numbers the taller kid will most of the time get a higher rank/grade.
With that said, in society, size does matter. The little guy has to put up "big guy" numbers to get noticed, that's just fact.
Society is vain and full of illusions.
The little guy has to put up beyond big guy numbers to get noticed. The big guy will just be the normal and fall into the category with the rest of the normals.
Yes, society is vain and full of illusions.
Often times the better person is wrapped in the worse packaging...and yet I still see guys going for the 5'8 blond bombshell that treats them like crap over the size 12 girl that would treat them great. Or the girls that go for the literal dumb jock over the computer nerd because the jock "looks hot".....Ah, society!
Can's disagree with you there.
Just because it looks good, doesn't mean it's good for you. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2018 : 18:20:32
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Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Why so much anger about little guys having some success? Is this not ok?? Why is it a big vs little argument any way? Shouldn't it be skill set vs skill set? Baseball is the only of the big 3 where size really doesn't matter. Should all the little guys pack up their gear and go home, regardless of what they can do, because the "odds" are against them? Just get out of the way of the "stronger" kids. Forget if the arm strength of this Nunez kid dwarfs that of the BIG kid, he's SMALL! He's destined for failure or to play second fiddle to the BIG kid. Jeesh, so much negativity and dream crushing! I have never seen a smaller player be discouraged by a coach, at least on the teams we've been on, only by other parents.
The problem is a lot have been following the cookie cutter method of what they think a player should look like. That method has been proven wrong time and time again and people still think it is the gold standard. A lot of academies churn out these cookie cutter players with cookie cutter results. I take it like a job. I'm not going to hire you because you look good. That means nothing if you can't do the job. Just like that 5'8" blonde, she's a short-term fix. Wether she knows it or not.
I have emails from coaches mentioning they didn't pick a kid because of their size and these guys are shorter and smaller than me. Can tell they never been an athlete in their lives, yet they use size as a reason not to pick a player. I have no respect for these farts. The upside to it was the team that pick them up played against them and they went pure ham with a shutout from the mound and raking at the plate.
Let them keep judging by size, just shows the level of ignorance they have. |
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dgersh22
169 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2018 : 23:18:53
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I'm glad all of these coaches and scouts kept telling me son he was to small to play at the next level, it made him work that much harder and still does. He got an opportunity, albeit at a D2 school. He made the most of his freshman year (.397 avg/2nd in conference/top 50 in D2 Nation, .477OBP/3rd in conf).
Not bad for a 5'8", 155lb that was told by a lot of coaches who said he couldn't play at the next level.
How many 6'2" and larger kids do you now see on D3 and D2 rosters are not playing at all that used to be on D1 rosters, that were signed by "smart" coaches who seen they were big and projectable. I see players on D2 rosters from D1's that don't get a sniff of playing time on their D2 team.
On the other hand 5'10" 1st round pick of the Boston Red Sox out of Sprayberry HS Michael Chavis received an invite from the Red Sox to spring training this year. He also plays a position reserved for big players, 3B. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 07:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Why so much anger about little guys having some success? Is this not ok?? Why is it a big vs little argument any way? Shouldn't it be skill set vs skill set? Baseball is the only of the big 3 where size really doesn't matter. Should all the little guys pack up their gear and go home, regardless of what they can do, because the "odds" are against them? Just get out of the way of the "stronger" kids. Forget if the arm strength of this Nunez kid dwarfs that of the BIG kid, he's SMALL! He's destined for failure or to play second fiddle to the BIG kid. Jeesh, so much negativity and dream crushing! I have never seen a smaller player be discouraged by a coach, at least on the teams we've been on, only by other parents.
The problem is a lot have been following the cookie cutter method of what they think a player should look like. That method has been proven wrong time and time again and people still think it is the gold standard. A lot of academies churn out these cookie cutter players with cookie cutter results. I take it like a job. I'm not going to hire you because you look good. That means nothing if you can't do the job. Just like that 5'8" blonde, she's a short-term fix. Wether she knows it or not.
I have emails from coaches mentioning they didn't pick a kid because of their size and these guys are shorter and smaller than me. Can tell they never been an athlete in their lives, yet they use size as a reason not to pick a player. I have no respect for these farts. The upside to it was the team that pick them up played against them and they went pure ham with a shutout from the mound and raking at the plate.
Let them keep judging by size, just shows the level of ignorance they have.
And that was my point. Right or wrong the height of a player matters to many coaches. Be it a dad coach or an academy coach I have heard comments about height several times. "He can't play there, he isn't tall enough." Or "his body style projects more as a __________". Only rarely have I heard "his arm isn't strong enough for ___________"
Here is an entire article on Altuve, yes he's a rock star, but no he wasn't suppose to make it. He was cut SEVERAL times for being too short.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/10/jose-altuve-baseballs-unlikeliest-superstar/542139/ |
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743
215 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 08:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Why so much anger about little guys having some success? Is this not ok?? Why is it a big vs little argument any way? Shouldn't it be skill set vs skill set? Baseball is the only of the big 3 where size really doesn't matter. Should all the little guys pack up their gear and go home, regardless of what they can do, because the "odds" are against them? Just get out of the way of the "stronger" kids. Forget if the arm strength of this Nunez kid dwarfs that of the BIG kid, he's SMALL! He's destined for failure or to play second fiddle to the BIG kid. Jeesh, so much negativity and dream crushing! I have never seen a smaller player be discouraged by a coach, at least on the teams we've been on, only by other parents.
As I have stated in all my posts I am pulling for this player but the chances of him staying at SS are not great compared to moving to 2B or 3B or OF. Lets be honest most colleges don't recruit 3B they take SS that were outstanding in HS and turn them into 3B. They take other SS and turn them into 2B. I am just stating facts. I love the small guys that play in the MLB and NBA or NFL! I am not saying anything negative about this kid, more about how coaches recruit, this kid has all the tools he needs, speed and arm strength and that always outweighs size unless there is another SS with better numbers then it comes down to consistency. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 09:13:34
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| ^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 09:23:36
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| Also, agree maybe will move to 3 or 2, but pretty sure no HS SS would be too disappointed if he ended up in either of those spots in D1 or the MLB. The point would be he made it. Pros are moved all the time. The point is to be allowed to MAKE it, big or small, based on skill set and numbers alone. |
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SuperStar
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:05:49
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| I think for the most part, folks are not knocking the smaller players and can definitely be proud of the ones who achieve success. No one can argue the fact that there has been many stud baseball players at the major level that have already been mentioned above. With that being said, it is harder for a smaller player to make it. That is all it boils down to. Yes, not all coaches are alike, and some are bad and good, but when it comes down to it, teams will choose the bigger players over the smaller ones. It doesn't make it right choosing size over skill, but it is the society we live in. You know the old term.,, "bigger is better", that's what the majority live by. |
Edited by - SuperStar on 01/26/2018 10:42:27 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:30:25
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743, you are very right on the recruiting landscape these days. Recruiters are recruiting up the middle. C, P, SS, CF....all other positions on their roster seems to be played by guys who use to be C, P, SS, CF. There are rare exceptions for the kid who hits bombs over the fence repeatedly, but if you pull up a college roster of who is actually playing most of the games, then compare that to what position they played on their travel ball team, I think you will repeatedly see P, C, SS, CF.
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SuperStar
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 10:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
14" in one summer is Guinness world record material. I bet everyone thought, who is this dude and what have you done with our little "punisher"! LOL!  |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 13:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
You may as well have said the sky is blue so my favorite food is eggplant.
What the heck does picking the bigger kid have to do with there being no development?
In this Atlanta area kids only sometimes stay on the same team for more than a year and rarely two. Why? It's called development. They are either getting it, in which case they need to move onto a better team, or they aren't getting it in which case they need to move on to another team.
A coach has to plan year by year, he doesn't have any guarantee that next year he will have the same group of kids. Two kids are trying out you go with the kid who is a 6/10 now and hope the coach can make him into an 8/10 for the season. You don't pick the 2/10 kid and say I'm going to make him an 8/10, and overlook the 6/10 kid.
So now coaches picking the better player in the beginning of the season shows there is no development? HUH? He's suppose to hope and cross his fingers that he can break the worse kid of his bad habits and instill better habits into him, and hope he listens and turns into a better player than the kid he passed on previously? HUH? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 14:28:04
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| I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 15:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
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Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
You may as well have said the sky is blue so my favorite food is eggplant.
What the heck does picking the bigger kid have to do with there being no development?
In this Atlanta area kids only sometimes stay on the same team for more than a year and rarely two. Why? It's called development. They are either getting it, in which case they need to move onto a better team, or they aren't getting it in which case they need to move on to another team.
A coach has to plan year by year, he doesn't have any guarantee that next year he will have the same group of kids. Two kids are trying out you go with the kid who is a 6/10 now and hope the coach can make him into an 8/10 for the season. You don't pick the 2/10 kid and say I'm going to make him an 8/10, and overlook the 6/10 kid.
So now coaches picking the better player in the beginning of the season shows there is no development? HUH? He's suppose to hope and cross his fingers that he can break the worse kid of his bad habits and instill better habits into him, and hope he listens and turns into a better player than the kid he passed on previously? HUH?
Not quite 14" but it was close. Made it to 6'6" while the bigger kids before stayed dwarfs.
Most coaches are not picking the better player, they are picking the bigger player in hopes he is the better player.
The coach is supposed to develop players in the early years. Studs are created, they just don't pop out of the womb as some would think. They want instant success and refuse to put in the work.
It's easy to assemble a team of studs and win, but when you create a team of studs and beat that assembled team is when you can really take credit. The assembled team coach is a fraud and probably not a good coach to begin with. Good coaches create studs. Bad coaches assemble studs to make up for their weak coaching. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 17:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers.
You are absolutely correct. Bigger does not equal better. People don't realize it until it happens to their kid who was once the big kid and did not grow anymore.
At the current and growing trend the next thing you know, kids will have to be 6'5" to pass the EYE TEST of a sub 5ft coach. So everyone is or who will be below 6'5" should quit now cause they will not pass the eye test? |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2018 : 23:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
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Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I'm still confused what you're getting at CaCo3. I think Punishers is saying (and either of you correct me if I'm wrong) is that his coach looked at the skill set, not the size, then he happened to grow (bonus for coach). But what I hear you saying is the coach picking the "better" player in the beginning of the season equals the bigger player. I don't think he said that. He said his coach recognized his talent DESPITE his size. So this goes back to the "bigger is better" mentality, which may be the current trend, but it's flawed. Bigger does NOT equal better. Numbers vs numbers.
You are absolutely correct. Bigger does not equal better. People don't realize it until it happens to their kid who was once the big kid and did not grow anymore.
At the current and growing trend the next thing you know, kids will have to be 6'5" to pass the EYE TEST of a sub 5ft coach. So everyone is or who will be below 6'5" should quit now cause they will not pass the eye test?
As a Dad of an extremely SMALL player, I love it when they keep under estimating my kid. Keep motivating and driving him to be better, nothing better than someone telling you, that you cannot do something. I'll take the small, dedicated feisty kid EVERY DAY over the Big Stud that doesn't work hard.
At 12U I have NO idea of what will pan out down the road, but the last 6 years with my kid being extremely undersized (12U size of 10U kid), he's held his own with some kids 15 inches and 50 to 100 lbs bigger than him. Kid is 12 yo, 4' 9" and 86 lbs but plays like a big boy and has put a few over the fence as well. Hard Work matters not size, yeah at some point it may catch up to him, but maybe not... My message to my son and others is keep working hard, keep grinding, it's not how tall or how much you weigh, but how much you want it ad LOVE the game. Don't let ANYONE tell you, you are not tall, big or good enough, prove them wrong.
Yes Coaches are short sided, but just prove your worth and keep grinding at the end of the day they want to win as much as anyone else, they just have to see their best option may not be in that BIG package.
Hey it is what it is, but again if I were coaching I'd take a team of 12 small feisty kids any day, win or lose I know those kids will give me 110% and then some. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2018 : 11:41:18
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| Yep, agree semipro, I have even seen catchers that size who have surprised us all. The little guys who are true ballers have a certain grit and scrappiness required to keep up with those bigger kids, and they also tend to have agility and speed that larger kids have trouble matching. After all that's why it's a TEAM sport, the best teams have a mix of players, each with something out of the ordinary to offer, not just a team of identical looking robots. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 09:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^yep. I read an article not too long ago, wish I could remember where I found it, where some college coaches were complaining that they were getting these rosters of all kids who were pitchers and bats, but no one could play defense .. they were actually having to TEACH defense and thus were starting to rethink this approach. Not only is a solid defense KEY, but some of the most memorable moments in baseball come from defensive plays. Watching one off the wall hit, when not striking out, after the next does get pretty boring.
Just goes to show you there is no real development. They just wanted the biggest kids.
I was one of those short/lanky kids at youth, just as good or even better than those who were bigger. Then something happened between the summer of ages 12-13. Grew 14 inches in one summer and towering over everyone else. Everyone wanted me on their team then. I stuck with the team and coach that picked me from the beginning. The coach figured if I was that good being a shorter/slimmer kid, I would be 10 time better and pass everyone when I grew. He was right.
Some coaches can see potential and some can only see for right now. No development. I have to see now.
This statement is what confuses me. Punisher made it sound like the coach should take the kid with potential, rather than the kid that is more advanced right now. I don's see how that works out for the coaches.
Punisher also said above that he was just as good if not better than the bigger kids. If that is the case then I don't see a problem in picking the smaller kid. However, my experience at 10u was that only the bigger kids could get the throw across the diamond without a bounce to 1st. Only the bigger kids could pitch with any kind of speed. And by the time 12u rolled around the coaches all wanted the athletic kid over the "bigger" kid. I don't see many overweight kids on true Majors teams. So perhaps this is a problem that fixes itself over time? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 10:02:55
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| At 10U it may be the exception more than the rule but my son who was smaller most definitely could make the throws, no bounce required. As far as pitching he didn't throw fast, but he threw slow, loopy STRIKES, something a lot of the "fast" pitchers couldn't do, thus striking out many a slugger. Not much has changed as we have progressed over the years. I think the OVERALL point is each player should be treated and looked at as an individual, and no one should be crossed off the list based on the eye test alone. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 01/29/2018 11:11:37 |
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SuperStar
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 11:31:05
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| That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end. |
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BusterO
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 13:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar
That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end.
Amen... |
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 14:01:05
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| Nick Madrigal |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2018 : 14:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar
That in general should be the bases, but it doesn't mean it will. The world is a tough place to negotiate, especially the older we get. Either way, we all have beat this dead horse to death. The chips are going to fall where they may and the cream is going to rise to the top. So all the coaches can do what they want. The talented and hard working players will shine in the end.
Very true. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2018 : 07:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Another example of the flawed "EYE TEST":
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754648-top-qb-recruit-justin-fields-cant-wait-to-compete-with-jake-fromm-at-georgia?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
Excerpt from article:
"he got cut from the prestigious baseball team, the East Cobb Astros, as a 13-year-old trying out for the 14-under team. He simply didn't pass the eye test. "I'm not getting cut from another team," he told his dad. "I'm not going through that embarrassment again."
I'm sorry but REALLY? He was trying to play UP on one of the most sought after Major level teams in the nation, and admits he doesn't love baseball, which is why he is pursuing Football.
The reporter that wrote the article can speculate all they like but every baseball parent on here will know why he didn't make the team, and it wasn't "the eye test". Especially since he was 5'9 and 175#'s...that WOULD have passed the eye test.
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The Development Lie
