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Crazyforbball

391 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  11:55:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any coach who sees a smaller kid with exceptional skill and still says NOPE, too small, or who doesn't even look in the 1st place, is only doing a favor for the coach who will pick that kid up. Size may give you more brute strength at the plate but only if you can beat the center fielder's throw to 1. Sure there are plenty of BIG kids in baseball who are very athletic, and plenty of little ones who simply can't keep up overall, but baseball is still a sport where skill can, and should, outweigh size for those who have it.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  12:58:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl


People would rather have the Ferrari with the pinto engine, than a pinto with a Ferrari engine.

If a kid doesn't pass the eye test he will have to be at least twice as good to get the same attention, and some coaches will still say NOPE! Are their unusual diamonds that don't fit the molds, yes. But let's not live in an idealistic world here. Let's not sell the idea that a kid who doesn't pass the eye test won't have a much harder time getting looks. Let's not pretend that with outstanding coaching and hard work every 5'9 kid can be an all American baseball player, they can't.

The body can only do what it can do. That is what defines special, when the body does more than other bodies can, and that has far more to do with genetics than it does a coach. I know several 10th graders throwing over 90, several other kids have followed the same regiment, had the same coaches, but they aren't throwing more than 80-85...why....genetics people.

One of the biggest lies in youth baseball told by a coach is "I made that kid into a first round pick"....no! A kid doesn't get to be a stud without the kid working their ass off, practically giving up their childhood, and good genetics. I've seen high draft kids and top D1 kids work out, they bust their butts until they have nothing left and then they do it again. That's not the coach, that's the kid.



The eye test sucks. Seen many Chryslers on the sides of roads looking good but not performing. Function over form matters. The eye test just shows how vain people really are. Everything is not what it seems.

Genetics do play a big part. If the parents were not athletes, usually the kid will not inherit those traits either. There is no amount of training that can over come genetics. This was the reason for the steroid use for HS athletes back in the day.

I read a study a few years ago where there was a test of strength vs size against same age kids with different sizes. After a few rounds a exercises, it was found that the kids that had more muscular density were stronger regardless of their size. It just so happened that 97% of those kids were on the leaner side. I'm sure we've all seen it before. Big kids that can barley pump out 10 pushups while the leaner kids can give 50 plus pushups and have more in the tank. It's like the effects of ants that can lift 50 times their body weight.

Size does not equal strength. Only people who are highly vain with simple minds think that.

The sad part is that most of these coaches who harp about size were never athletes to begin with.



We are in two different worlds. My concern wasn't the 155 pounds it was the 5'9.

Correct, non-athletic kids aren't going to make it in the sport. Even the MLB pitchers we openly mock for barely fitting in their uniform were, at one time, lean athletic machines. Girth is not the issue, it's height. MLB, MiLB, and D1 rosters are littered with 6ft plus people, not 5'9.

Size does not equal strength, just like living in a 1 Million dollar home doesn't mean you are wealthy...but it sure is implied!
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Punishers

688 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  14:45:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl

quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl


People would rather have the Ferrari with the pinto engine, than a pinto with a Ferrari engine.

If a kid doesn't pass the eye test he will have to be at least twice as good to get the same attention, and some coaches will still say NOPE! Are their unusual diamonds that don't fit the molds, yes. But let's not live in an idealistic world here. Let's not sell the idea that a kid who doesn't pass the eye test won't have a much harder time getting looks. Let's not pretend that with outstanding coaching and hard work every 5'9 kid can be an all American baseball player, they can't.

The body can only do what it can do. That is what defines special, when the body does more than other bodies can, and that has far more to do with genetics than it does a coach. I know several 10th graders throwing over 90, several other kids have followed the same regiment, had the same coaches, but they aren't throwing more than 80-85...why....genetics people.

One of the biggest lies in youth baseball told by a coach is "I made that kid into a first round pick"....no! A kid doesn't get to be a stud without the kid working their ass off, practically giving up their childhood, and good genetics. I've seen high draft kids and top D1 kids work out, they bust their butts until they have nothing left and then they do it again. That's not the coach, that's the kid.



The eye test sucks. Seen many Chryslers on the sides of roads looking good but not performing. Function over form matters. The eye test just shows how vain people really are. Everything is not what it seems.

Genetics do play a big part. If the parents were not athletes, usually the kid will not inherit those traits either. There is no amount of training that can over come genetics. This was the reason for the steroid use for HS athletes back in the day.

I read a study a few years ago where there was a test of strength vs size against same age kids with different sizes. After a few rounds a exercises, it was found that the kids that had more muscular density were stronger regardless of their size. It just so happened that 97% of those kids were on the leaner side. I'm sure we've all seen it before. Big kids that can barley pump out 10 pushups while the leaner kids can give 50 plus pushups and have more in the tank. It's like the effects of ants that can lift 50 times their body weight.

Size does not equal strength. Only people who are highly vain with simple minds think that.

The sad part is that most of these coaches who harp about size were never athletes to begin with.



We are in two different worlds. My concern wasn't the 155 pounds it was the 5'9.

Correct, non-athletic kids aren't going to make it in the sport. Even the MLB pitchers we openly mock for barely fitting in their uniform were, at one time, lean athletic machines. Girth is not the issue, it's height. MLB, MiLB, and D1 rosters are littered with 6ft plus people, not 5'9.

Size does not equal strength, just like living in a 1 Million dollar home doesn't mean you are wealthy...but it sure is implied!



Right. There are a lot of 6ft plus people in MLB, MiLB and D1. They can't throw 93 across the diamond nor run a 6.43 60. I don't see the height as an issue although others do. It's only 3 inches height difference, but a ton of difference in ability.
Let's call it fake height cause those 6 footers don't have the ability to back up their height.

Funny you mentioned those Million dollar homes. I know plenty broke people living that facade. This is the Atlanta area, there are more people living a lie here than anywhere else. It's all an illusion.

Edited by - Punishers on 01/24/2018 15:01:24
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743

215 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  14:50:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

There were a lot of youth coaches that told Billy Hamilton he was too small, but they couldn't put him out at 1B on a bunt and couldn't jack the ball up anywhere near CF.


Billy Hamilton is 6 feet tall and plays CF, Why would anyone say he was too small? Another reason I think this player moves to OF or 2B.
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743

215 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  14:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

quote:
Originally posted by SuperStar

Impressive no doubt, but not normal. I can't believe he is throwing it 93 mph across the infield. That is crazy! He must be super human!



Normal is an assumption. We all know what we get when we assume. LOL. Normal doesn't get drafted in the 1st round. Normal doesn't get you a full ride offer as a freshman. Normal doesn't you invited to play at showcases.

You can keep your Normal because that's all they ever will be. Just Normal.

Super human? Maybe. LOL. Just a product had hard work, the right training and development to enhance the already skills and abilities that many claim his statue was a limitation.


This kid is not normal, he can flat out fly and has a cannon, that is all you need to get drafted honestly. They can teach you to hit and field. He has great genetics and has worked hard I am sure but the "normal" kids will never throw that hard or run that fast no matter how many lessons they take or how much they workout or do long toss.
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Punishers

688 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  15:01:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 743

This kid is a stud, but I am going to bet he either moves to 2B or Outfield when he goes to Clemson or the draft. Unless he grows 3 inches or puts on about 25 pounds. What do I know though, I am going to pull for him either way though being a Ga player!



He just might get moved to 2B in favor of a taller latin kid that a team has more invested in. As long as the check clears is all that matters. A MIF is a MIF. Should be able to play both SS, 2B and even 3B like Javy Baez did this past season.
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743

215 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  15:53:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you Punishers!
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Punishers

688 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  16:29:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 743

quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

There were a lot of youth coaches that told Billy Hamilton he was too small, but they couldn't put him out at 1B on a bunt and couldn't jack the ball up anywhere near CF.


Billy Hamilton is 6 feet tall and plays CF, Why would anyone say he was too small? Another reason I think this player moves to OF or 2B.



Billy is listed as 6ft. I've seen him in person. He's definitely not 6ft. I still don't see Nasim being moved. His 38" vertical makes up for the 3 inches or more in that height difference.
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BaseballNut123

4 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2018 :  16:41:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl

quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl


People would rather have the Ferrari with the pinto engine, than a pinto with a Ferrari engine.

If a kid doesn't pass the eye test he will have to be at least twice as good to get the same attention, and some coaches will still say NOPE! Are their unusual diamonds that don't fit the molds, yes. But let's not live in an idealistic world here. Let's not sell the idea that a kid who doesn't pass the eye test won't have a much harder time getting looks. Let's not pretend that with outstanding coaching and hard work every 5'9 kid can be an all American baseball player, they can't.

The body can only do what it can do. That is what defines special, when the body does more than other bodies can, and that has far more to do with genetics than it does a coach. I know several 10th graders throwing over 90, several other kids have followed the same regiment, had the same coaches, but they aren't throwing more than 80-85...why....genetics people.

One of the biggest lies in youth baseball told by a coach is "I made that kid into a first round pick"....no! A kid doesn't get to be a stud without the kid working their ass off, practically giving up their childhood, and good genetics. I've seen high draft kids and top D1 kids work out, they bust their butts until they have nothing left and then they do it again. That's not the coach, that's the kid.



The eye test sucks. Seen many Chryslers on the sides of roads looking good but not performing. Function over form matters. The eye test just shows how vain people really are. Everything is not what it seems.

Genetics do play a big part. If the parents were not athletes, usually the kid will not inherit those traits either. There is no amount of training that can over come genetics. This was the reason for the steroid use for HS athletes back in the day.

I read a study a few years ago where there was a test of strength vs size against same age kids with different sizes. After a few rounds a exercises, it was found that the kids that had more muscular density were stronger regardless of their size. It just so happened that 97% of those kids were on the leaner side. I'm sure we've all seen it before. Big kids that can barley pump out 10 pushups while the leaner kids can give 50 plus pushups and have more in the tank. It's like the effects of ants that can lift 50 times their body weight.

Size does not equal strength. Only people who are highly vain with simple minds think that.

The sad part is that most of these coaches who harp about size were never athletes to begin with.



We are in two different worlds. My concern wasn't the 155 pounds it was the 5'9.

Correct, non-athletic kids aren't going to make it in the sport. Even the MLB pitchers we openly mock for barely fitting in their uniform were, at one time, lean athletic machines. Girth is not the issue, it's height. MLB, MiLB, and D1 rosters are littered with 6ft plus people, not 5'9.

Size does not equal strength, just like living in a 1 Million dollar home doesn't mean you are wealthy...but it sure is implied!



I'm sure he has been hearing the concerns about his height all of his life. Most probably would have said he could not go D1 but not only is he going D1 but ACC!! Jimmy Rollins heard these same concerns about being 5'9 but 4 gold gloves, 07 NL MVP, and World Series Championship later he is still 5'9. Lets not bring up Drew Brees, Troy Polamalu, Rafael Furcal, Lionel Messi and the list goes on and on and on.

Fact of the matter is which one of baseball's 5-tools is determined by height..........NONE. Height is not a statistical determinate of speed, hitting for power, hitting for average, defense or arm strength.

The eye test is only for people who can't evaluate talent and only relevant when people don't know your skill set. I promise no one is going D1, potential MLB draft pick or being named PG finest in the field based on their height or passing the eye test. Skills pay the bills, not height.

I somewhat agree that the little guy has to work harder but I think thats conducive of what appears to be his professional outlook. Name a bigger leaguer that didn't have to work harder than others to make it. If it was easy, it wouldn't be special.
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Crazyforbball

391 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  07:28:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Baseballnut...nailed it!
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bama21

278 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  08:34:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We always judge on appearance, everyone does it and in every arena, not just sports. That's why I always say the numbers don't lie. Everything you do in baseball creates numbers, so let a player be measured by what he does and the numbers he puts up, not what he looks like.
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bama21

278 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  08:51:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let me say this about "height", there are a lot of preconceived notions about a player's height and how projectable that player is. This concept is engrained into us by everything you read about players and what scouts are looking for. PG does this all the time, there are many kids given high rankings and grades because the player is "projectable"....ie the kid is 6'3 to 6'6" even though they are only throwing mid 80's. If you had a 5'9" to 6'0" kid with similar numbers the taller kid will most of the time get a higher rank/grade.

With that said, in society, size does matter. The little guy has to put up "big guy" numbers to get noticed, that's just fact.
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turntwo

955 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  09:34:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some sub-6 footers, that are MIF:

Dan Uggla: (5'11"-- in spikes): career earnings ~$75M http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/washington-nationals/dan-uggla-342/cash-earnings/

Jimmy Rollins: (listed at 5'7"): career earnings ~$93M http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/san-francisco-giants/jimmy-rollins-649/cash-earnings/

Rafael Furcal: (listed at 5'8"): career earnings ~$85M http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/kansas-city-royals/rafael-furcal-465/cash-earnings/

Ozzie Smith: (listed at 5'10"): HALL OF FAMER

Ozzie Albies: (listed at 5'9")

Phil Rizzuto: (listed at 5'6"): HALL OF FAMER

Craig Biggio: (listed at 5'11"): HALL OF FAMER

Jackie Robinson: (listed at 5'11"): HALL OF FAMER

I believe you get the point. Size means NOTHING.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  10:19:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's been discussed to death that had several of those guys tried out now they wouldn't have had such a career. The sport has changed, the stereo types have changed. Is there still a rare short guy, absolutely. However, my point in this "development lie" thread has been to say coaches give the taller kids more shots. they will gravitate towards developing the taller kid, thinking he has a better shot long term.

I know of a 16u kid, a 2020. He's played in 24 PG events, the team has even won a few, very very talented team that he is a starter on. He's been on the all tourney team 15 times, named to the top prospect team at a PG showcase, and yet he isn't even ranked. Why? Did I mention he's 5'9?

It is the reality people. When my son hit 6'2 I can't tell you how many people said something like Oh that's good, he's going to be recruited as a pitcher, or he meets the minimum pitching height, or oh that should really help him get recruited, he's now "projectable". #FACTS
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Punishers

688 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  10:20:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If height was a determining end all factor, then there are a lot kids who should just quit now. If the dad is 5"7" and mom is 5'4", there is a good chance the only 6's the kid will see will be the other kids around him.
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bama21

278 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  10:26:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Again, put up the numbers and you will get noticed. If you don't, you will not get the same "projectability" that the taller players get.

Jose Altuve will probably go down as one of the best "little" players ever just from what he has done so far. Maybe you should read his story, if you haven't, and you will see just how hard it was for him.

Craig Biggio, in evaluating him said, "I wish he was taller".
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Punishers

688 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  10:29:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Let me say this about "height", there are a lot of preconceived notions about a player's height and how projectable that player is. This concept is engrained into us by everything you read about players and what scouts are looking for. PG does this all the time, there are many kids given high rankings and grades because the player is "projectable"....ie the kid is 6'3 to 6'6" even though they are only throwing mid 80's. If you had a 5'9" to 6'0" kid with similar numbers the taller kid will most of the time get a higher rank/grade.

With that said, in society, size does matter. The little guy has to put up "big guy" numbers to get noticed, that's just fact.




Society is vain and full of illusions.
The little guy has to put up beyond big guy numbers to get noticed. The big guy will just be the normal and fall into the category with the rest of the normals.
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bama21

278 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  10:48:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the good news is that with the Altuve's of the world, it opens the door for smaller players and maybe they won't get overlooked and pushed aside because they can play and be very successful at the highest level.
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CaCO3Girl

1989 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  12:49:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers

quote:
Originally posted by bama21

Let me say this about "height", there are a lot of preconceived notions about a player's height and how projectable that player is. This concept is engrained into us by everything you read about players and what scouts are looking for. PG does this all the time, there are many kids given high rankings and grades because the player is "projectable"....ie the kid is 6'3 to 6'6" even though they are only throwing mid 80's. If you had a 5'9" to 6'0" kid with similar numbers the taller kid will most of the time get a higher rank/grade.

With that said, in society, size does matter. The little guy has to put up "big guy" numbers to get noticed, that's just fact.




Society is vain and full of illusions.
The little guy has to put up beyond big guy numbers to get noticed. The big guy will just be the normal and fall into the category with the rest of the normals.


Yes, society is vain and full of illusions.

Often times the better person is wrapped in the worse packaging...and yet I still see guys going for the 5'8 blond bombshell that treats them like crap over the size 12 girl that would treat them great. Or the girls that go for the literal dumb jock over the computer nerd because the jock "looks hot".....Ah, society!
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turntwo

955 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  13:24:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl

When my son hit 6'2 I can't tell you how many people said something like Oh that's good, he's going to be recruited as a pitcher, or he meets the minimum pitching height, or oh that should really help him get recruited, he's now "projectable". #FACTS



1- This isn't about pitching as much as MIF... Different 'pre-requisites'.

2- Ozzie Alvies is a CURRENT MLB'er for the Braves. Never EVER seen a HOF'er told they wouldn't make it "today". That's just silliness.

3- 6'2 doesn't mean squat for a pitcher, if you don't know how to pitch. Or can't locate and change speeds. Not sure who "all these people" are that commented just because of his height, but as Punisher said, they sound more vain than having baseball knowledge.

4- Just to compare though, 2 "old" (I guess they wouldn't make it today either) HOF pitchers, Greg Maddox and Tom Glavine-- NEITHER of which are 6'0. #facts
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Renegade44

211 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  13:33:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
<<They can teach you to hit and field>>

Of course, right after they teach control/strikes.

Can they teach bat speed?
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743

215 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  13:38:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess until it happens we don't know but I have heard a lot of pro scout say Tom Glavine would not only not get drafted by today's standards he would probably be playing in a JUCO school somewhere.

Tons of things can happen between now and then. One thing I have learned in the baseball recruiting world, Nothing ever happens the way we think it will.

Wishing him good luck though.

Edited by - 743 on 01/25/2018 15:32:07
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mikepayne

173 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  16:12:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like a tall first baseman, after that I throw height out of the window. Tall pitchers are nice if they can repeat their mechanics and don't turn every single/walk into a triple with a slow delivery to the plate. Ball players come in all shapes and sizes, weather PG ranks them or not.
I heard yesterday that Chipper and Ken Griffey Jr. are the only #1 picks to make the HOF.
Go Braves

Edited by - mikepayne on 01/25/2018 17:40:09
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ofs13

48 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  16:16:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 743

I guess until it happens we don't know but I have heard a lot of pro scout say Tom Glavine would not only not get drafted by today's standards he would probably be playing in a JUCO school somewhere.

Tons of things can happen between now and then. One thing I have learned in the baseball recruiting world, Nothing ever happens the way we think it will.

Wishing him good luck though.



Glavine's son (5'11" 175 lbs) was drafted by the Angels in the 37th round of the 2017 draft, but (potentially due to the low draft position) elected to pitch for Auburn. Mid-upper 80s fastball

Edited by - ofs13 on 01/25/2018 17:40:09
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Crazyforbball

391 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2018 :  16:57:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why so much anger about little guys having some success? Is this not ok?? Why is it a big vs little argument any way? Shouldn't it be skill set vs skill set? Baseball is the only of the big 3 where size really doesn't matter. Should all the little guys pack up their gear and go home, regardless of what they can do, because the "odds" are against them? Just get out of the way of the "stronger" kids. Forget if the arm strength of this Nunez kid dwarfs that of the BIG kid, he's SMALL! He's destined for failure or to play second fiddle to the BIG kid. Jeesh, so much negativity and dream crushing! I have never seen a smaller player be discouraged by a coach, at least on the teams we've been on, only by other parents.

Edited by - Crazyforbball on 01/25/2018 17:40:09
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