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 this could be more fields for cobb county
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Peanutsr

171 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2010 :  15:56:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BBallman, 643 is not listed as a non-profit in the state of Georgia so your scenario doesn't apply.
Critical, are you saying that any Public land in the state of Georgia that hasn't been used for a period of time should be made available to private, for profit entities to use at the exclusion of the public?
Just asking.
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bmoser

1633 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2010 :  16:53:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bandit_Hawk:
I don't think the anti-643 tone we've read on this site through the years is personal. I just think its EC folks who see them as competitors to their dynasty. if the competition gets their own facility, they are more of a threat.

If, and when, the Signature Park facility gets off the ground, I think we'll see the same negativity towards them too. I've already read one posters comment that "nobody will play on fake grass" (hmmm, Ripkin is doing pretty well) and "they wont have the caliber of instruction as East Cobb" (they dont even know who the Sig Park instructors will be).

East Cobb is a great program and facility, no doubt, but competition will make them even better, so why not embrace it? A metro area this size can support more than one youth baseball mega-plex.
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Alter-Ego

802 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2010 :  22:42:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am an EC person and I really am pulling for 6-4-3 to get their fields situation worked out. True EC people that love the game of baseball would not be pulling against them. It's about the kids having opportunities to play, not about one park.
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JCB

88 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2010 :  00:03:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by Peanutsr

Just don't take advantage of a missinformed City Council and a recession to line your pockets at the publics expense.


So what are you saying exactly - do nothing and leave it in disrepair, un-used and attracting seedy characters. What is your solution? Comparing what is taking place here to XYZ taking over a well used public park and excluding others seems like an unfair characterzation of real facts.

Many other kids aside from 643's players will also benefit from redeveloping and bring this facility back to life. We have played out of ECB for years, but play over half our games at other facilities - public, private and public school funded. Another good park and well run academy environment supports the development of baseball for our youth - all of which is good for developing our youth through sports and teaching associated life lessons.

Edited by - JCB on 07/24/2010 09:18:23
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Peanutsr

171 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2010 :  10:37:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My solution as I stated in an earlier post would be to sell the property to 643 outright, even at less than market value.
Any municipality should not have the right to provide rent free leases of public property(paid for by the taxpayers) to "any" private for profit enterprises that can then deny the public access to that property.
Also, nowhere in my XYZ example did I use the words "well used". If you are going to brand my characterization as unfair please be fair and post as written.
quote:
Originally posted by JCB

[quote]Originally posted by Peanutsr

Just don't take advantage of a missinformed City Council and a recession to line your pockets at the publics expense.


So what are you saying exactly - do nothing and leave it in disrepair, un-used and attracting seedy characters. What is your solution? Comparing what is taking place here to XYZ taking over a well used public park and excluding others seems like an unfair characterzation of real facts.

Many other kids aside from 643's players will also benefit from redeveloping and bring this facility back to life. We have played out of ECB for years, but play over half our games at other facilities - public, private and public school funded. Another good park and well run academy environment supports the development of baseball for our youth - all of which is good for developing our youth through sports and teaching associated life lessons.


Edited by - Peanutsr on 07/24/2010 15:00:49
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in_the_know

985 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2010 :  15:48:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kind of interesting that there are such strong sentiments on this subject without anyone really having any knowledge of the terms of the agreement between the city and 643, which I don't even know have been finalized. The article merely states that the council approved negotiation between the parties.

Likewise, 643 already has an agreement in place with the County for use of Larry Bell/Perry Parham. That agreement hasn't prevented anyone from use of the park, it seems to give 643 control of the schedule. If you wanted to take your kid down there and hit grounders or take BP, you would be free to do so provided the fields weren't being used by 643 or one of the other entities using the park. There was another travel team playing on the Larry Bell fields last season as well as the Walker School middle school team. It would appear that the current arrangement between 643 and Cobb County is very similar that of other rec leagues that have use of County parks. Before everyone starts screaming about parks being taken away from the kids, find out what the real terms and impact is. I don't know, so I won't speculate. Whether it is used by a private organization or otherwise, it will put additional ballfields into use in the metro area that weren't in use before. As someone mentioned earlier, many teams play in tournaments and scrimmages hosted at Larry Bell, so the fields are used by families other than 643 today. One would imagine that the new fields would be similarly available to the community.
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stinger

120 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2010 :  06:19:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"The group's latest proposal is to lease the site during the four-year term of council, with an exclusive right to negotiate subsequent renewals. But as opposed to its initial proposal, the city would be responsible for paying the up to $800,000 in improvements to the facility, while the baseball group would agree to pay $12,000 to $20,0000 a year in lease payments.

"It could work, but I think they got to stay within four years," Tumlin said. "... I don't think we ought to build the $800,000 to their specifications, but we build the park almost independent of them, but obviously get input from them. Whatever monies are necessary to build three quality baseball fields, they agree to make sure Marietta citizens have a certain amount of access to it. I can live with that."

quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know

Kind of interesting that there are such strong sentiments on this subject without anyone really having any knowledge of the terms of the agreement between the city and 643, which I don't even know have been finalized. The article merely states that the council approved negotiation between the parties.

Likewise, 643 already has an agreement in place with the County for use of Larry Bell/Perry Parham. That agreement hasn't prevented anyone from use of the park, it seems to give 643 control of the schedule. If you wanted to take your kid down there and hit grounders or take BP, you would be free to do so provided the fields weren't being used by 643 or one of the other entities using the park. There was another travel team playing on the Larry Bell fields last season as well as the Walker School middle school team. It would appear that the current arrangement between 643 and Cobb County is very similar that of other rec leagues that have use of County parks. Before everyone starts screaming about parks being taken away from the kids, find out what the real terms and impact is. I don't know, so I won't speculate. Whether it is used by a private organization or otherwise, it will put additional ballfields into use in the metro area that weren't in use before. As someone mentioned earlier, many teams play in tournaments and scrimmages hosted at Larry Bell, so the fields are used by families other than 643 today. One would imagine that the new fields would be similarly available to the community.

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Critical Mass

277 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2010 :  17:03:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, Peanut...if the governing body approves it and it improves the park. Many businesses will also beneift from the park being there when tournaments are hosted there etc. We're not talking about "Eminent Domain", now that I am against.
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highcheese99

14 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2010 :  07:49:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bandit_Hawk-my guess if you called Danny and asked him to use a 643 field after his deal goes down, you would be told about instructors that are available for a fee. ECB wouldn't let you just go up and use their fields either and I wouldn't blame either of these businesses.

Why doesn't 643 just buy some land and build a field and start their academy?
There must be a huge advantage or "sweet" deal in the making.
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touchemall

145 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2010 :  11:01:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking at how many teams he is hoping to add for the next season and if the trend continues, he will soon not be able to support them at their current facility and the talent will look to other programs. 643 program is doing well but will experience some growing pains unless they get more room and better facilities (only two fields at Larry Bell they can use right now). If you build it, they will come...

I like the idea of having them buy it on the cheap from the county instead of leasing but there is no room for expansion and 643 probably has that in mind and that is why they are looking to lease.
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highcheese99

14 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2010 :  19:20:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
touchem
The facility in question is not Larry Bell. It is the old marietta high school baseball field with indoor batting facility I think and about 2 other good sized softball fields, maybe another 3 fields included with that. If they get it they could hang with ECB. If and when the deal happens people will be amazed at what a deal they got.
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GW

56 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2010 :  14:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On a real positive 643 DP note, how about those 643 DP 15U Cougars winning the Perfect Game 15U WWBA tournament last Sunday!! Go Cougs!!!
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qui-gon.jinn

52 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2010 :  10:39:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you didn't see the championship game, you all missed a real gem of a ballgame... as the pg recap said... one swing. one run. a real pitcher's dual. cougars pitcher threw a complete game shutout of the PG-ranked NUMBER 1 team in the nation.

simply amazing. congrats, 6-4-3...
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longhornpapa

27 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2010 :  07:57:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
what everyone, including the 2 marietta board members, seems to be missing is that 6-4-3 wants to take dilapidated, old, unused fields in horrific condition, that is a regular resting place for cobb county's drunks, druggies, hobos and refuse, and with their help, clean it up, revitalize the fields, get rid of the refuse that's consistantly there, and build a revenue stream for the business and the county.
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Critical Mass

277 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  07:56:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a done deal.

http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/9056104/article-City-close-to-leasing-out-sports-park?instance=home_news_bullets
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gasbag

281 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  08:32:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm confused over all the "stir" this has created. Many public parks are leased by baseball organizations in Cobb / Marietta area. Mt. Bethel ( Roswell / JF ) is leased by ECB and Fuller's Park is leased by Eastside Baseball to name a few. Not sure of the specifics of the leases, but it's the same premise and certainly suggests "precedent". As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ?
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bmoser

1633 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  09:29:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am not a Marietta or Cobb County resident, so my opinion really matters not, but seems to me the City needs to sell the land, or utilize it in some way to benefit the Community. To let it sit in disrepair isn't a logical option because costs are involved yet no benefit is derived.

Marietta should sell it to Cobb County, then the County does the deal with 6-4-3. Why? It will directly benefit more Cobb County residents than City of Marietta residents by a wide margin, and the County can extend the time horizon enough to show a positive cash flow on the transaction satisfying County taxpayers. There are pre-existing non-contingent County-owned parcels in that area, so that shouldn't conflict with any long-term land use plans, and also provides for adequate access to the land for County personnel, vehicles, and equipment.

quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass

It's a done deal.

http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/9056104/article-City-close-to-leasing-out-sports-park?instance=home_news_bullets

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bmoser

1633 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  09:51:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gasbag,
Danny needs to come as close as possible to the pre-existing leases the City has in place with any other baseball orgs. If I'm a City of Marietta resident, then the sticking point for me is combining capital improvement costs with an exclusive use clause that could limit City resident access. I wonder if Eastside baseball paid for any capital improvements at the outset of their lease, and how those were handled. I'd also review Eastside's by-laws to see how it handles City resident versus non-resident use. I can't see the current proposal flying in its current form unless there is no Community objection and the City Parks and Rec has the cash available for the immediate improvements.

quote:
Originally posted by gasbag

I'm confused over all the "stir" this has created. Many public parks are leased by baseball organizations in Cobb / Marietta area. Mt. Bethel ( Roswell / JF ) is leased by ECB and Fuller's Park is leased by Eastside Baseball to name a few. Not sure of the specifics of the leases, but it's the same premise and certainly suggests "precedent". As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ?

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gasbag

281 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  10:08:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bmoser - I'm pretty sure the leases I mentioned are not 100% exclusive for the lessee. There are specific dates and times associated with the leases. However, you raise a good point with capital costs. Taxpayers must be able to reclaim them over time to justify the spend. If the lease does not accommodate this, I would not be in favor of it.




quote:
Originally posted by bmoser

Gasbag,
Danny needs to come as close as possible to the pre-existing leases the City has in place with any other baseball orgs. If I'm a City of Marietta resident, then the sticking point for me is combining capital improvement costs with an exclusive use clause that could limit City resident access. I wonder if Eastside baseball paid for any capital improvements at the outset of their lease, and how those were handled. I'd also review Eastside's by-laws to see how it handles City resident versus non-resident use. I can't see the current proposal flying in its current form unless there is no Community objection and the City Parks and Rec has the cash available for the immediate improvements.



quote:
Originally posted by gasbag

I'm confused over all the "stir" this has created. Many public parks are leased by baseball organizations in Cobb / Marietta area. Mt. Bethel ( Roswell / JF ) is leased by ECB and Fuller's Park is leased by Eastside Baseball to name a few. Not sure of the specifics of the leases, but it's the same premise and certainly suggests "precedent". As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ?



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Peanutsr

171 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  10:43:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Totally different situation. Once again East Cobb baseball is a non-profit Org that leases Mt Bethel fields for use. When no East Cobb event is taking place the fields are open for use by the public. East Side Baseball is a County youth baseball organization much like Sandy Plains, Powder Springs, Boundry Waters, Southwest, on and on and on, all youth non-profit baseball organizations. Also all playing on fields that are open to the public when not in use by those organizations.
643 is a private for profit business. They will have sole use of the fields with the ability to deny the public access up to and includeing having private citizens arrested for tresspassing.
Now look at the financials:
643 has aprox. 9 age groups. Average 80 kids per tryout at 80 dollars. Aprox $57K for tryouts. The max lease to be paid in a year is $30K.
Now take what, 16 to 18 teams with say an average of 11 kids per team. Cost to play for 643 estimate $!,600 per year.( which will be going to pay for tournaments supplies etc. theoretically no profit is made from these charges)
Ad Clinics Aprox $125. a pop for avg. 80 kids per age group. Est. around $80K
Ad tournaments, leaseing to org. like Triple Crown, U trip etc.
Ad private lessons by members of the coaching staff.
Quite a bit of money to be made by a private business off fields paid for by the taxpayers.
All this is irrelevant at this point because the deal has been finalized. Danny pulled off a sweetheart deal and proved that he is as shrewd a businessman as he is a gifted baseball coach. Without a doubt many kids will benifit as participants in the 6-4-3 baseball organization.
This still doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by gasbag

I'm confused over all the "stir" this has created. Many public parks are leased by baseball organizations in Cobb / Marietta area. Mt. Bethel ( Roswell / JF ) is leased by ECB and Fuller's Park is leased by Eastside Baseball to name a few. Not sure of the specifics of the leases, but it's the same premise and certainly suggests "precedent". As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ?

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baseballready

188 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  10:57:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Eastside Baseball plays out of Fullers Park - part of Cobb County Parks and Rec. I agree with your comment that city should sell the property. Could either be to 643 directly or to Cobb County to allow for longer term lease.
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Shut Out

512 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  11:19:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Eastside is a county park not a city park like the facility in question.
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12uCoach

357 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  12:59:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is an issue of Federal Money on some parks and why they can't be sold. If any Federal money was used to buy or improve the property, then there are all kinds of rules you have to go through to sell it, like you'd have to pay it back. Don't know about the Marietta property, but I know there are others like that in the county.
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gasbag

281 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  14:42:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The premise that a NFP group leases the fields is irrelevant. NFP groups pay salaries of the employees and in many instances, pay higher salaries. ECB for instance is a "not for profit"....yet I have heard many on this board suggest they make too much money and charge too much etc etc etc.

If you'll also notice in my post, I referenced "As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ? ". If the lease is not equitable to the taxpayers, then it's not a good deal.... and shame on our politicians for doing it. If however, it is a good business deal, congrats to the politicians for representing us taxpayers. I do not know the specifics of the deal so I have to leave the question in limbo for now. If someone knows the details of this, I'm sure we'd all love to here them.

Lastly, if 643 responded to an RFP, then they responded to the City's request. Obviously, the City wanted ideas and or suggestions and this one met with their approval. Be interesting to know if it had to go through the public hearing process etc. for approval ? If so, Marietta residents had a chance to voice their opinions. Just a thought !
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Peanutsr

171 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  15:54:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure Government subsidies fall under the purvue of Capitalism.
And this would be a deal with the City not the County.
What we have is a private for profit Business being subsidized by the city with property paid for by the taxpayers.
I am all for Capitalism, I am sure if 643 "Bought" a piece of property on the open market and developed their program that they would be hugely successful.
This sweetheart deal is a step or two away from "Capitalism".
quote:
Originally posted by baseball1

Peanuts - your final point of profits - to - be - made is irrelevant ; regardless of how much 643 is projected to profit or lose , their deal with the county is a total side issue ; this is an openly for profit venture, our country was based on capitalism (not socialism) , and as the article points out the county voluntarily advertised a Request For Proposal on the land some time ago -- they are publicly asking for revenue thus no one is holding a gun to their head at what terms that deal is finally arrived at .

quote:
Originally posted by Peanutsr

Totally different situation. Once again East Cobb baseball is a non-profit Org that leases Mt Bethel fields for use. When no East Cobb event is taking place the fields are open for use by the public. East Side Baseball is a County youth baseball organization much like Sandy Plains, Powder Springs, Boundry Waters, Southwest, on and on and on, all youth non-profit baseball organizations. Also all playing on fields that are open to the public when not in use by those organizations.
643 is a private for profit business. They will have sole use of the fields with the ability to deny the public access up to and includeing having private citizens arrested for tresspassing.
Now look at the financials:
643 has aprox. 9 age groups. Average 80 kids per tryout at 80 dollars. Aprox $57K for tryouts. The max lease to be paid in a year is $30K.
Now take what, 16 to 18 teams with say an average of 11 kids per team. Cost to play for 643 estimate $!,600 per year.( which will be going to pay for tournaments supplies etc. theoretically no profit is made from these charges)
Ad Clinics Aprox $125. a pop for avg. 80 kids per age group. Est. around $80K
Ad tournaments, leaseing to org. like Triple Crown, U trip etc.
Ad private lessons by members of the coaching staff.
Quite a bit of money to be made by a private business off fields paid for by the taxpayers.
All this is irrelevant at this point because the deal has been finalized. Danny pulled off a sweetheart deal and proved that he is as shrewd a businessman as he is a gifted baseball coach. Without a doubt many kids will benifit as participants in the 6-4-3 baseball organization.
This still doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by gasbag

I'm confused over all the "stir" this has created. Many public parks are leased by baseball organizations in Cobb / Marietta area. Mt. Bethel ( Roswell / JF ) is leased by ECB and Fuller's Park is leased by Eastside Baseball to name a few. Not sure of the specifics of the leases, but it's the same premise and certainly suggests "precedent". As long as the lease is fair and equitable to Cobb County taxpayers, what's the issue ?





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